Match Reaction. WBA2-1 Arsenal 21/11/15

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

That sentence is exactly why I dont agree with you much. You find the bad run of other clubs to justify why we are doing poorly.. I look at us missing opportunity after opportunity to drive home the advantage and show the rest that we are going for the title. Why dont you look at us and think "Why cant my team be like Chelsea last season where they grabbed the league by the scruff of the neck right from the start?".. we had an opportunity to do exactly that. Instead we are here saying "Hey, everyone is fucking up, so we are not that bad!"

I'll let you decide which attitude makes you a winner, and which attitude makes you the average joe.

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We haven't missed opportunity after opportunity, you're ignoring the opportunities we have taken. Off the top of my head Utd at home which saw us leapfrog them, Leicester away when City had dropped points - still Leicester's only league defeat.

Of course we should have won yesterday but the fact remains we're only a point off the other credible contenders. We cocked up but other teams do too, we'll mess up other games but so will others. We don't have to win every game and never mess up to be champions, while we're still in touch I'll believe we have a chance.

If we had taken the league by the scruff of the neck and were well clear at the top right now I bet you plenty on here would be predicting we'd just collapse anyway. Stop pretending your belief we have no chance of the title is anything to do with our results so far. Results so far show we're in the mix. I understand people's skepticism about our chances and recent form is a worry. As I said, let's see where we are after the City game. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. I don't really think anyone with a winner's attitude would do that when only one point behind...

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Its only recently that we weaned him off prowling for grammatical errors as English/spelling slip-ups mean you obviously dont know what you're talking about.

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"It's", and "don't"

:sulk:

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Originally Posted by Letters

We haven't missed opportunity after opportunity, you're ignoring the opportunities we have taken. Off the top of my head Utd at home which saw us leapfrog them, Leicester away when City had dropped points - still Leicester's only league defeat.

Of course we should have won yesterday but the fact remains we're only a point off the other credible contenders. We cocked up but other teams do too, we'll mess up other games but so will others. We don't have to win every game and never mess up to be champions, while we're still in touch I'll believe we have a chance.

If we had taken the league by the scruff of the neck and were well clear at the top right now I bet you plenty on here would be predicting we'd just collapse anyway. Stop pretending your belief we have no chance of the title is anything to do with our results so far. Results so far show we're in the mix. I understand people's skepticism about our chances and recent form is a worry. As I said, let's see where we are after the City game. I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. I don't really think anyone with a winner's attitude would do that when only one point behind...

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You dont become winners when you take 2 opportunities and then miss 2 opportunities. I am not forgetting that we have had good performances but we have had some horrible performances too. As for being one point behind a credible contender, I have a sneaky feeling Liverpool will be up there very very soon.

And I am not throwing in the towel yet and neither should you, but like I said, you can see the train wreck coming.. we are just praying and hoping that the driver of the train (Wenger) can see that he needs to change tracks. But knowing him, you know he will take the same track to destruction.

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

You dont become winners when you take 2 opportunities and then miss 2 opportunities. I am not forgetting that we have had good performances but we have had some horrible performances too. As for being one point behind a credible contender, I have a sneaky feeling Liverpool will be up there very very soon.

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Not sure about Liverpool. Maybe. As I was saying at the start of the season though, you don't win the title in the first 10 games, but you can lose it as we did last year. This year we're in touch and for now that's enough. It would be nice to be 5 points clear, or whatever, but would that make anyone on here feel confident we'd last the distance? We've had some very good results and a few really poor ones. But, for now, we're in the mix. And, for now, that's enough.

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

And I am not throwing in the towel yet and neither should you, but like I said, you can see the train wreck coming.. we are just praying and hoping that the driver of the train (Wenger) can see that he needs to change tracks. But knowing him, you know he will take the same track to destruction.

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Unfortunately I think our train is stuck on the tracks - I don't see how he can change them now unless he makes an impressive signing in January and I think that's unlikely. We're stuck with the squad we have and if we fail to challenge because of injuries and a lack of squad depth then Wenger should be sacked. The next few games will tell us a bit more about our credentials. We messed up the first 'easy' game but we have a few more before the City game.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Do I really have to explain how what a potential rival for the title does is relevant?
We cocked it up yesterday, so did City. If the argument is we can't win the title because we cocked up then that logic should also apply to City.

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Well no because they've won the title recently and have shown they can, we haven't for over a decade and have collapsed like a house of cards more often than we care to count.

I don't care what has happened in the past. For the last couple of years we've been signing the sorts of players who can win you a title.
Last year we started getting the sorts of results in big games which win you trophies, we've already won 2.
This year we need to push on for the bigger prizes, so far we're in touch and right now that's good enough.
We wouldn't have won either Utd game - away in the Cup last year, home in the league this year - a few years ago.
If you don't believe we have any chance then fine, stop watching - what's the point? While we're in the mix I'll believe we have a chance, as I've said the next few games will tell us more about our title credentials.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't care what has happened in the past. For the last couple of years we've been signing the sorts of players who can win you a title.
Last year we started getting the sorts of results in big games which win you trophies, we've already won 2.
This year we need to push on for the bigger prizes, so far we're in touch and right now that's good enough.
We wouldn't have won either Utd game - away in the Cup last year, home in the league this year - a few years ago.
If you don't believe we have any chance then fine, stop watching - what's the point? While we're in the mix I'll believe we have a chance, as I've said the next few games will tell us more about our title credentials.

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My stance on things is that if we can keep 90% of the squad fit then we can and will challenge strongly for the title, the issue we have now and have had over the past 4 or 5 seasons is the squad is decimated with injuries. If the injuries don't ease up and we don't have a relatively fit squad by January then we can wave goodbye to the title, I'd go as far as to say we will be in a real scrap for top 4 if injuries don't ease up because I think Spurs & to a lesser extent Liverpool are starting to show real signs of improvement.

Despite all that, I think when we had a relatively injury free squad earlier on in the season we at times did look like the real deal.

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Originally Posted by selassie

My stance on things is that if we can keep 90% of the squad fit then we can and will challenge strongly for the title, the issue we have now and have had over the past 4 or 5 seasons is the squad is decimated with injuries. If the injuries don't ease up and we don't have a relatively fit squad by January then we can wave goodbye to the title, I'd go as far as to say we will be in a real scrap for top 4 if injuries don't ease up because I think Spurs & to a lesser extent Liverpool are starting to show real signs of improvement.

Despite all that, I think when we had a relatively injury free squad earlier on in the season we at times did look like the real deal.

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If I was being picky I'd tell you that decimate means "to remove one in 10", so that would be 90% of our squad fit ;) :coney:
But basically, I agree. IMO we're good enough but the injury problems are building up again and that is looking like it may cost us.
If so then #WengerOut, 'cos this has been a problem for years and he hasn't found a solution.
But while we're in touch I'm going to keep believing we have a chance. We have a good run in, if we're there or thereabouts with 10 games left I think we've got a shot.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Unfortunately I think our train is stuck on the tracks - I don't see how he can change them now unless he makes an impressive signing in January and I think that's unlikely. We're stuck with the squad we have and if we fail to challenge because of injuries and a lack of squad depth then Wenger should be sacked. The next few games will tell us a bit more about our credentials. We messed up the first 'easy' game but we have a few more before the City game.

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I dont think signings are the issues. My first post on this thread was about the lack of urgency in our game. I do not know if you watched this game or not, but the players didnt even look bothered till the 85th minute. There was no hustle, no busting a gut, just piss poor non-penetrative football. This was no Bayern Munich against who we couldnt touch the ball.. this was West Brom FFS!

I have mentioned this before as well.. My main grievance with Wenger is not primarily his signings. It has always been about his tactics and man management. While he could have and should have done better in the transfer window, he is very poor in tactics and motivating a team. The same mental frailties are a trademark of his teams. Yesterday's game was just plain horrible.. no motivation, no energy, no plan B. Gutless!

I don't disagree about Wenger's weaknesses, but he's always had those. It didn't stop us winning titles back in the day. And the next guy, he'll just have different weaknesses. It sounded like a bad day at the office all round on Saturday. Those happen to every team. We can't afford too many though, it's the first really bad league result for ages so let's see how we react. If we have a nightmare few weeks which sees us fall out of the title race then I'll probably catch ZD too. Hopefully not the Stage 3 Brain Death kind though.

Wenger is definitely a problem, he's not responsible for absolutely everything that goes wrong but he's definitely part of it, some things are directly his fault.

Poor planning costs us everytime, I don't even know how he can talk his way out of it TBH, we all see it coming, he didn't, it's not even like we're unlucky.

I know this is off the back of seeing them dismantle City but who thinks Klopp would do a better job than Wenger here at Arsenal? I sure as hell do.

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Originally Posted by Letters

If I was being picky I'd tell you that decimate means "to remove one in 10", so that would be 90% of our squad fit ;) :coney:
But basically, I agree. IMO we're good enough but the injury problems are building up again and that is looking like it may cost us.
If so then #WengerOut, 'cos this has been a problem for years and he hasn't found a solution.
But while we're in touch I'm going to keep believing we have a chance. We have a good run in, if we're there or thereabouts with 10 games left I think we've got a shot.

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Yeah you are being picky...you know what I mean ;)

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Originally Posted by fakeyank

I dont think signings are the issues. My first post on this thread was about the lack of urgency in our game. I do not know if you watched this game or not, but the players didnt even look bothered till the 85th minute. There was no hustle, no busting a gut, just piss poor non-penetrative football. This was no Bayern Munich against who we couldnt touch the ball.. this was West Brom FFS!

I have mentioned this before as well.. My main grievance with Wenger is not primarily his signings. It has always been about his tactics and man management. While he could have and should have done better in the transfer window, he is very poor in tactics and motivating a team. The same mental frailties are a trademark of his teams. Yesterday's game was just plain horrible.. no motivation, no energy, no plan B. Gutless!

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Most of us are on the same page with this one. Same hallmarks as past teams with the lifeless performances. As said with the Utd game, it’s not a good sign when the manager leaves it up to the players to pep themselves up for a game. The initiative should come from the manager first and trickle down to the rest of the team. We’re lucky that City lost yesterday so still close to the top but we’re not learning from past seasons. The manager, the players, even us fans rattling on about our shortcomings or what’s different to past seasons. Déjà vu. Even if we win the league somehow, I want Wenger gone after regardless. Winning the league again would be miraculous. Like surviving a rally race with Stevie Wonder at the wheel. The joy at cross the finish line would be a feeling like no other. But you’ve be mad to jump back in the car again and think you’ll be as lucky. This is it for Wenger.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't disagree about Wenger's weaknesses, but he's always had those. It didn't stop us winning titles back in the day. And the next guy, he'll just have different weaknesses. It sounded like a bad day at the office all round on Saturday. Those happen to every team. We can't afford too many though, it's the first really bad league result for ages so let's see how we react. If we have a nightmare few weeks which sees us fall out of the title race then I'll probably catch ZD too. Hopefully not the Stage 3 Brain Death kind though.

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All managers may have weaknesses but if you are managing a team with title aspirations you cannot have the weakness of not spending the right money on quality players in areas of need. The next manager may not for example be great on the training ground but you get good coaches in for that, as long as he identifies a style of play that wins games & makes sure we have the best players possible including cover to play that style. Previous years have shown the weaknesses of players like Giroud & Mertesacker, so you have to deal with it in the transfer market - Wenger constantly fails to do so. A non-league manager walking into Arsenal last year would have known we needed cover for Coq, another quality CB & a proven goalscorer. Without these, points will be dropped along the way due to injuries, suspensions & strikers not taking their fair share of chances.
Saturday proved that Arteta shouldn't be anywhere near an Arsenal shirt - its not a biased reaction from Saturday, you will find posts from me & many others saying exactly the same over the past few years. You will note how many times posters on here say about how unlucky we were with missed chances etc. Missed chances aren't unlucky when you have as many as we do - its poor finishing from strikers simply not good enough.
At the same time Campbell was missing a sitter from 5 yards on Sat, West Brom were bringing Berahinho on, Vardy was banging in his 10th successive goal - there were players out there who can score goals - we decided we didnt need them. Players like Schneiderlein were available to give us options to Coq but we decided Arteta & Flamini are good enough. These are very basic errors that are unbelievable errors from a man of Wengers suppposed football knowledge.
We lost Saturday due to Arteta being a shit alternative to Coq & our strikers not taking chances, This is not bad luck - its bad management & there will be plenty more games like it this year. These games ultimately cost us the chance to compete & its the same every year.

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

All managers may have weaknesses but if you are managing a team with title aspirations you cannot have the weakness of not spending the right money on quality players in areas of need. The next manager may not for example be great on the training ground but you get good coaches in for that, as long as he identifies a style of play that wins games & makes sure we have the best players possible including cover to play that style. Previous years have shown the weaknesses of players like Giroud & Mertesacker, so you have to deal with it in the transfer market - Wenger constantly fails to do so. A non-league manager walking into Arsenal last year would have known we needed cover for Coq, another quality CB & a proven goalscorer. Without these, points will be dropped along the way due to injuries, suspensions & strikers not taking their fair share of chances.
Saturday proved that Arteta shouldn't be anywhere near an Arsenal shirt - its not a biased reaction from Saturday, you will find posts from me & many others saying exactly the same over the past few years. You will note how many times posters on here say about how unlucky we were with missed chances etc. Missed chances aren't unlucky when you have as many as we do - its poor finishing from strikers simply not good enough.
At the same time Campbell was missing a sitter from 5 yards on Sat, West Brom were bringing Berahinho on, Vardy was banging in his 10th successive goal - there were players out there who can score goals - we decided we didnt need them. Players like Schneiderlein were available to give us options to Coq but we decided Arteta & Flamini are good enough. These are very basic errors that are unbelievable errors from a man of Wengers suppposed football knowledge.
We lost Saturday due to Arteta being a shit alternative to Coq & our strikers not taking chances, This is not bad luck - its bad management & there will be plenty more games like it this year. These games ultimately cost us the chance to compete & its the same every year.

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Wenger may want to win trophies, but that's not his priority above all else. His number one priority is to keep the club running in a way that matches his philosophy. Big happy families. Players getting chance after chance after chance to deliver and even when they come up short and there's no sign whatsoever they'll improve, getting another chance. Happy players, great spirit, and fun was had by all. But it's not a shop for winners. Everyone and everything is too comfortable. Except in his focus area of attacking midfielders, no real competition around the squad because the players who are supposedly challenging the first eleven just aren't good enough - not at the top level anyway. No boots being thrown at player's faces. Silly promises behind the scenes that result in mega-farce such as Cech being benched for CL matches. Arsenal must be the easiest touch in football for a mid-tier player like Gibbs or Flamini or you could say Giroud. And this has gone from one extreme to another. Previously we'd get rid of 30 year olds when they still had plenty to offer. Now we hang on to them when they are well past their sell-by date.

We need a football bastard in here to shake up the whole mentality. It should be about winners getting the big bucks and bonuses and losers getting kicked in the face or kicked out the door. I think Pellegrini suffers from the same shit. He should be walking this league with the resources at his disposal but the players are shitting on him. Ferguson would have kicked that cunt Toure 50 yards into the air and then onto the street by now, and then brought in a better replacement regardless of how much it cost.

We went into the season without a killer striker, without a like for like replacement for our only genuine DM and knowing Merts would get plenty of game time because we're short of quality there too. Cech was a great signing of course. We'd have dropped more points had he not been in the net. Like we did in the CL for instance, when Wenger went with the guy who throws the ball in his own net.

So two weeds trying to kill off a mediocre Utd and who can't take the advantage gift wrapped by collapsing chavs. Pellegrini will probably be sacked even if he wins the title this year. The owners know what they want at that club, the publicity afforded to winners. Not runners-up, or CL qualifiers or an almost did something bunch of millionaires. The ruthlessness required to win. We, on the other hand, will probably give our guy a contract extension. And so the same story will go on and on with everyone bar the few hold-outs knowing how it's going to pan out season after season. As fans we aren't in this any more. We're expected to hand over cash but our expectation of getting something in return is not recognised any more. Instead there's a happy little family, great spirit, great money, great lifestyle, it must be fucking lovely to be an Arsenal manager or player. Best job in the world surely? All the perks, none of the targets. Bliss. No wonder spirits are so high.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Wenger may want to win trophies, but that's not his priority above all else. His number one priority is to keep the club running in a way that matches his philosophy. Big happy families. Players getting chance after chance after chance to deliver and even when they come up short and there's no sign whatsoever they'll improve, getting another chance. Happy players, great spirit, and fun was had by all. But it's not a shop for winners. Everyone and everything is too comfortable. Except in his focus area of attacking midfielders, no real competition around the squad because the players who are supposedly challenging the first eleven just aren't good enough - not at the top level anyway. No boots being thrown at player's faces. Silly promises behind the scenes that result in mega-farce such as Cech being benched for CL matches. Arsenal must be the easiest touch in football for a mid-tier player like Gibbs or Flamini or you could say Giroud. And this has gone from one extreme to another. Previously we'd get rid of 30 year olds when they still had plenty to offer. Now we hang on to them when they are well past their sell-by date.

We need a football bastard in here to shake up the whole mentality. It should be about winners getting the big bucks and bonuses and losers getting kicked in the face or kicked out the door. I think Pellegrini suffers from the same shit. He should be walking this league with the resources at his disposal but the players are shitting on him. Ferguson would have kicked that cunt Toure 50 yards into the air and then onto the street by now, and then brought in a better replacement regardless of how much it cost.

We went into the season without a killer striker, without a like for like replacement for our only genuine DM and knowing Merts would get plenty of game time because we're short of quality there too. Cech was a great signing of course. We'd have dropped more points had he not been in the net. Like we did in the CL for instance, when Wenger went with the guy who throws the ball in his own net.

So two weeds trying to kill off a mediocre Utd and who can't take the advantage gift wrapped by collapsing chavs. Pellegrini will probably be sacked even if he wins the title this year. The owners know what they want at that club, the publicity afforded to winners. Not runners-up, or CL qualifiers or an almost did something bunch of millionaires. The ruthlessness required to win. We, on the other hand, will probably give our guy a contract extension. And so the same story will go on and on with everyone bar the few hold-outs knowing how it's going to pan out season after season. As fans we aren't in this any more. We're expected to hand over cash but our expectation of getting something in return is not recognised any more. Instead there's a happy little family, great spirit, great money, great lifestyle, it must be fucking lovely to be an Arsenal manager or player. Best job in the world surely? All the perks, none of the targets. Bliss. No wonder spirits are so high.

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:gp:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeaLynH8JB0

That was a brilliant analysis of the offside rule.

The Coq analysis was something which everyone could see light years away, except Wumger