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Barca have their eye on the guys for Sevilla, they'd be fools to take Wenger, I don't think they are fools though they have ambition to win everything and Wenger certainly won't manage that, though with the players they have it wouldn't be too hard to pick up a trophy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
If he's at another club I'll enjoy watching them coming 2nd best and having him say it's a great success, it'll make a change from it being us.
His reputation around Europe is basically ruined. Only he cant see it. The French manager position could be available, but I doubt he can hack it there either. No top club in Europe wants him, thats for sure. China is probably the only place for him to go. They will pay him what he wants and he can fiddle with his Bibendum suit on the sidelines to his hearts content. He is deluded, long has been. Sometime ago I posited that many Arsenal fans were suffering from "Battered Wife syndrome" not wanting him to go . It seems now that Wenger has "Battering husband syndrome". "I cant let my wife divorce me M`lud. Cos I will have no one to beat up when I wake each morning"
Why do you keep saying 4th? :lol: We haven't finished 4th for 3 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
The situation has changed so my opinion has changed, as has other people's, but he was getting a lot of stick back in the day from some people. In the era where we were struggling to compete financially I think he did quite well to keep us "up there". Now the money is there so there is no reason we can't compete, he's been signing the sorts of players who should enable us to step up like Ozil and Sanchez and while the FA Cups were nice we really should be competing for the biggest prizes now. We're not, and that's why he has to go. I don't think Wenger is satisfied with us being 2nd best but I don't think he's able to do better. I blame the board too though because they ARE happy for us to be 2nd best as it keeps the money rolling in.
I'm not sure it will take that long to improve things IF we get the right manager in - note how Chelsea did so poorly last year when they had a manager the players couldn't work with, this year they'll probably be champions.
As for Wenger not taking the blame for things, that sounds like a lot of the managers who you look at admiringly. You do this sort of thing a lot, you hold people to different standards depending on whether you like them or not.
I hope Wenger goes at the end of this season, if he does he'll go with some dignity and most people will respect what he's done for the club.
2nd, 3rd, 4th it's all the same when you don't compete for the trophies! Personally I think he hasn't done a good job for a long time, I always maintained his flaws, persistence with failing methods and refusal to do the right things hindered us and I stand by that. As for signing players, he's signed 2 players (3 if you include Cech though he was cheap and not one to build a team with IMO) hardly groundbreaking, he should have done a lot more of that and had the chance, last summer being a prime example, he signed some nobodies for a lot of money who just haven't worked out (he should have gone for targets earlier in the summer not waiting around until late on when prices would be higher and choice scarce, poor management IMO).Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I totally disagree, he is satisfied with being 2nd best, that's part of the reason we are where we are, he won't do the necessary and go out on a limb to try and make us winners, he's all too happy qualifying for the CL, that's the holy grail for him, that and making a profit, you saying he isn't satisfied doesn't make it so, evidence point to the fact he is, he wouldn't have hailed qualifying for the CL as such a great achievement otherwise, he epitomises the losers mentality IMO and that runs throughout the club which is sad and will take time to change for any new manager.
Like it or not he's won 2 FA Cups in what 12 years, that's a pretty poor return, time after time he's failed but what's worse is his attitude, it asbolutely shocking that a manager could behave like this towards the fans and be so much in denial and frankly it's unacceptable any other club would have sacked him years ago, he's been very lucky to be at a club like Arsenal where the owner only cares about profit. I'm not absolving the owners of blame btw, they are very much to blame, but this mess also started before they arrived IMO, the day he decided to change our style of play to this tippy tappy rubbish in fact.
Clubs have ups and downs, new managers new time to bed in, the thing is other clubs don't accept things going wrong they do something about it when it doesn't work, Chelsea being a perfect example, they got rid of a manager who had had a huge amount of success because it wasn't working out and look where they are now.
Most managers are far more honest about things than Wenger, that's what makes him so much more irritating than the rest, other managers will take the blame, blame players, say when performances are unacceptable, they don't wrap all the players in cotton wool or indeed blame the fans (pretty low if you ask me).
I lost respect for Wenger a long time ago, not because of what he was doing but because of his criticism of fans and refusal to ever accept any blame or balme his players, they were always the good ones who were hard done by, pretty pathetic really, I think quite a few fans have lost respect for him too.
At the end of the day he's had 20 years with us and 12 odd years has been IMO a failure, so his record isn't all that, plenty of better managers out there.
Wenger has been instrumental in changing Arsenal from a football club to a financial institution. Whatever else, he's guilty of that. Every time it was suggested we take a risk and buy that one player who made a difference Leeds Utd were rolled out as a certainty of what would befall us if we spent the money. Only when the balance sheet was tipped wildly in favour of the shareholders and there was a ton of cash in the bank did we spend some of it. Even then, it seems the board was happy to spend more but Wenger carried on his penny pinching ways but now he was doing far more damage as the money gave him the means to panic buy when his penny pinching didn't work out. That's why we have ended up with 90 million worth of players who are second rate, bar possibly Peres who (of course, it's Wenger) he won't play. As Littlejohn would say - I'm a massive cuntyou couldn't make it up.
Wenger took this club to the top of the mountain... and then he destroyed it. That's his legacy. We're a hedge fund for Stan Kroenke now. That's our primary purpose and Wenger and the rest have treated themselves bountifully during the process of transformation. It's a scandal really, but the media will all fawn and the fans will all don rose tinted specs when he eventually leaves.
Yes Wenger, no doubt about it, thanks for the privilege of watching some of the best football I have ever seen and am ever likely to see. I don't deny you that. But shame on you for the other things. Those shouldn't be forgotten either, even though they will be.
Are you sure they aren't looking at him with unrestrained jealousy? A multi-millionaire who doesn't have to achieve anything except the barest minimum? A guy who sets his own targets and is accountable to nobody regardless of the outcome? I can see why a lot of managers would look on and admire the sheer nerve of it. Nice of you can get away with it, especially for so long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Wenger on #afc fans' anger: "It's not like Arsenal had won the European Cup 5 times before I arrived. They've never won it."
what a cunt!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchies
Agreed. Sympathy goes out the window when he starts talking this way.
Chileans will protest on 1st March in a bid to get Sanchez out of Arsenal.
:haha:
he makes these statements on purpose to deflect from the actual criticism. Never accepts anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur
Fuck the send off. He can fucking do one. Massive cunt!
Won the cup winners cup and UEFA cup though, what has he won in Europe, absolutely nothing, he's a total failure in Europe, arguably the biggest failure ever having had so many opportunities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchies
Couldn't even with the UEFA cup when he had he chance.
If it's all the same then why do you insist of emphasising the "fake news" that we always finish 4th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
He's always had flaws of course, some people act like he only developed flaws in the latter part of his reign. The fact is he was never a great tactician, never a great motivator and his teams have always under-achieved to some degree - that side circa The Invincibles should have won 3 titles in a row and should probably have won the CL. But he's made up for those weaknesses by his strengths - fitness methods, knowledge of the worldwide game to name but two which when he came to us were revolutionary. But revolutionary ideas don't stay revolutionary, other clubs caught up and overtook us in some regards, then the billionaires stuck their beaks in just at the time when the stadium move was limiting our finances.
His strengths helped us stay relatively competitive during that era, his weaknesses stopped us from winning more trophies. Right now the money is there, it's clear that we won't win another title under Wenger. The fact we expect to be challenging for the title each year is a legacy of Wenger's time with us but we need someone else to push us on.
He clearly isn't satisfied with 2nd best. Why would he be? He's clearly competitive, you say yourself how sulky he gets when things don't go our way, why would he act like that if he wasn't bothered?
Chelsea sacked a manager who was in the process of taking the Champions into a relegation battle because of his toxic personality, say what you like about Wenger he's never sunk that low.
There really aren't. Some though, certainly. Many of the managers people on here have cited as potential replacements have crashed and burned at other clubs.Quote:
plenty of better managers out there.
It's a slightly pointless argument because "many" is vague and there's no quantifiable way of saying how good a manager is.
The board are responsible for that, but I believe Wenger sets himself higher targets than he can achieve these days. The board couldn't give a monkeys how we do so long as the money keeps rolling in, Wenger at least cares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Clubs pretty much have to be financial institutions these days. Wenger hasn't done that, Sky have. His legacy is the stadium and our standing in the worldwide game as well as the sack of trophies and the memories.
What is wrong with you?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchies
Just general immaturity, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I can't say I notice the difference between 2nd, 3rd, 4th to be honest, the reason for this is we're never really in the title mix, Liverpool came 2nd a few years back but were really in there with a good chance until the end, we fall away long before so for me it's all the same, we were 10 points behind Leicester last season and were never aywhere near at the tail end of the season, so the stats of where we came are pointless IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We never challenge for the title, so that's not his legacy, people want him out for precisely that, he never really challenges and every year it's the same, we collapse when it matters, it's never really a challenge, likewise in the CL, we get through the group then get thumped, it's all so predictable.
His legacy could have been champagne, football, making this club great had he stopped back in 2005, unfortunately he didn't and now he's been here another 11 years (the majority of his spell with us), his legacy is making us a business whose priority is to make a profit at the end of the season at the expense of what happens on the pitch, together with tippy tappy nonsense football that is honestly less interesting than watching paint dry and a losers mentality running from top to bottom at the club.
The way I see it, he's left us with money in the bank but with a lot of issues for anyone new coming in, 20 years of Wenger is going to be hard to erase for any successor and a lot needs to be erased IMO.
You might not agree and that's fair enough but he totally ruined his legacy IMO and in the process he's done quite some damage to this club to the point that it's own fans have a dislike for it and it's own fans fight over him, find another manager who has achieved that. For me he's really drained all of the enjoyment out of watching Arsenal and I'm sure he has for a lot of others!
So, again, if you think there's no difference why do you make a point of emphasising how we always finish 4th. Above you said "pathetic 4th place finishes". Why do that if there's no difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
If he goes at the end of the season then people will appreciate his legacy. It's not up for you or me to define what it is but my guess is most people will appreciate what he's done for us.
I think my point is more about CL qualification being the only thing we care about or achieve, 4th place for me signifies that, it's obviously not literally 4th every season, but it may as well be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Some will appreciate it, but many will also be happy we're rid of him after years of underachievement and pointing the blame at everyone but himself and his players. It's pretty hard to remember the great times now to be fair, it's a long time ago now a lot has changed since then and the fact he's been unable to reproduce any kind of success (unlike the best managers out there), is a massive stain on his CV because logically if you're a top manager you should be able to deliver success time and time again, not just in one spell.
It's actually hard to remember many good moments in the last 10 years.
His record in Europe is shit and he deserves to be called out on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchies
Yes we know Wenger is the one who has elevated expectation and for that I'm grateful, however if the club expect us to pay the highest prices in the game then the fans are completely right to expect a team that can win the major prizes. Actually forget about winning them, just competing would be nice but we can't even do that.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Pretty much. Paying for caviar and getting potato chips, and he has the audacity to blame the fans. What a moron!
I'll just leave this here.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39001868
:run:
Who are 'we'?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
The board? I agree.
Wenger? Definitely not.
I think a lot of people will be happy he's gone, but that doesn't mean people won't appreciate what he did. It's funny how you say it's hard to remember the great times when you seem to be pretty clearly remembering the "wonderful" 92/93 season which was long before Wenger's best time with us (and was mostly awful if you had to sit through the games week in, week out).
I'd agree with that much - that's what separates Wenger from people like Ferguson who managed to adapt to the way football changed and compete and succeed over a long period of time. But there are very few managers at that level around, and it has to be remembered that for about 7 years Wenger stood toe to toe with him and got the better of him on quite a few occasions.Quote:
the fact he's been unable to reproduce any kind of success (unlike the best managers out there), is a massive stain on his CV because logically if you're a top manager you should be able to deliver success time and time again, not just in one spell.
If Wenger and Kroenke stay it will be difficult to attract new players of the required calibre and even more so to keep existing players . Like it or not Arsenal do not pay wages at same level as Man U and players now realise that they are unlikely to win anything under the present regime.
Good grief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchies
Wenger needs to get the hell out now before he does any more damage. Every day he stays he's making it harder for the new guy that will have to deal with the mess. Certainly the finances are in order, but on the football side we are sinking into some pretty deep shit.
The board we agree on, but Wenger, really?? Year after year he does uses the same tired, failed methods, makes the same mistakes and the list goes on, I know you say he's not satisfied, but then why doesn't he try to do something different, why doesn't he sign different players, use different tactics try a different brand of football. He either is happy with what he's achieved or he's thick, I don't think it's the latter so that leaves him being happy with CL qualification, and yes I know he stamps his little feet on the touchline from time to time but that just proves frustration in one match it doesn't prove he's not happy with the outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Time will tell but it's we've seen so much of the Wenger that has failed it's become hard to remember the rest. No all I said was I enjoyed the football and matches back then, I can't remember clearly what is was like, I can just remember enjoying football and being excited to watch Arsenal, but that was probably due to the fact we could upset the odds so football was unpredictable, unlike these days when we already know the outcome before the season has started.
It will be Wenger for 2 years.
Says the man who waxes lyrical about a season which was, a few good cup games aside, completely horrible both in terms of results and the way we played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
It's funny how you're managing to remember the few highlights from a terrible season 25 years ago but struggling to remember 7 seasons of brilliant football and sacks of trophies which ended less than 15 years ago.
I had a season ticket in 92/93 but mercifully it was my first year at Uni so I didn't have to sit through that much but I remember the bits I did see. Man it was awful.
We only won 15 out of 42 league games and finished the season in 10th place, 7 points off the relegation zone.
We only scored 40 league goals in those 42 league games. :lol:
From mid-November till the end of the season we P27 W6 D9 L12 in the league, scoring 18 goals.
And this was a season you "thoroughly enjoyed" because of a few admittedly good cup triumphs (which were also awful games of football by the way but I guess when you've pub-teamed a 1-0 in the FA Cup Semi-Final vs Spurs you don't care too much about the quality).
As I said, I don't think Wenger has the ability to do better but I do believe he wants to deeply. Unlike the board who are quite happy to sit back and count the money.
I'm sure he wants to do better, every uncompetitive manager would, but that doesn't mean he's not satisfied with the job he's doing. This 'never had it so good' attitude towards the fans suggests he's actually quite comfortable meeting the bare minimum objectives that have been set.
His years of being a ferocious competitor have long gone, that probably went when Dein left and he had to take on the entire weight of the club.
He seems pretty unrepentant, oblivious to the idea it might be himself at fault. It sounds like he's feeling under-appreciated for the consistent lack of success he's brought over the last decade. Of course he'll view all the big numbers on the balance sheet as the ultimate success. He's not in the same place as the fans on any level. So it wouldn't surprise me if he stayed and thought he was doing us a huge favour, despite our ingratitude.Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermind84
Well that burns away all my optimism that he will be gone at the end of the season
We apparently have to tolerate mediocrity because he can't bear to tear himself away from football
So essentially we have it confirmed, our manager is putting his own interests before that of the club
Narrow win for Trump in the deluded narcissistic press conference sweepstakes. By a nose.
Why is any of this relevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Who is top of the league right now? Where were they at this stage last season? What did they do to correct the problem? They sacked a manager that had previously brought them sack loads of trophies. This isn't marriage, it's competitive sport. And Wenger hasn't been doing charity work all this time.
What else is there to debate any more? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Apart from religion of course and I haven't ignored your post in BW, I will reply ##
I think I'll be gone at the end of the season if he stays though. Not as any sort of futile protest, but more because I can't see myself being able to muster the enthusiasm to go through the tiresome and predictable cycle all over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Sneaky PM on the side again? You saucy git.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I don't think you'll be the only one frankly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Keep saying it, if Wenger doesn't go then the only thing which will change things is for a mass boycott. And while a near empty stadium at the Bayern game would send some message, the fact is they already have the money so, to an extent, they probably don't care. But season ticket renewal time is coming up, that's people's chance to vote with their wallets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
How long is the waiting list now? Still very long I heard. I imagine they'd be delighted if the troublesome fans (who, after all, are to blame for all the problems) shipped out and more friendly consumer types walked in. It's not personal (by any stretch), it's just business.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Hope he stays
He probably will.Quote:
Originally Posted by GP
http://www.justarsenal.com/a-lifelon...sionment/49866