Wenger actually had a very good young core. Just didn't develop em. Most of the youth players he signed were very highly ratedQuote:
Originally Posted by Özim
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Wenger actually had a very good young core. Just didn't develop em. Most of the youth players he signed were very highly ratedQuote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Working on the premise that we’ll be able to stretch to maybe 3 or 4 modest signings this summer, this is where I think we *might* be able to find internal solutions and where I think we’ll probably have to invest out limited funds...
Cech —> Martinez
Ospina —> no one needed
Lichsteiner —> Osei-tutu
Mustafi —> Bielik / Chambers
Elneny —> Bielik / Chambers / no one!
Mkhitaryan —> Nelson
Özil —> Smith Rowe / Willock
Welbeck —> Nketiah
Koscielny —> ££££
Kolasinac / Monreal —> ££££
Ramsey —> ££££
New winger —> ££££
(Bonus wingers if we need backups —> Saka / Amaechi)
In terms of numbers, 11-14 players sounds like a ridiculous number to lose and gain in the same summer - however, when you actually look at the names on those ‘out’ lists, how many of them would we really miss? Ramsey, and the Koscielny and Monreal from a couple of seasons ago perhaps. The rest? I don’t see what any of them are currently adding in terms of performance, leadership, fitness, organisation, discipline or morale. Far better for morale, imo, to show the younger players that they’ll get a chance if they work hard, and for the better performers to not have to watch failure and mediocrity being rewarded so lavishly while they carry the whole team.
I should stress that *this is absolutely not* a recipe for instant success - far from it! It’s a recipe for emergency restructuring with a view to trimming £50-70m a year off of our wage bill (and maybe bringing in a modest amount in fees) that can then be put towards rebuilding the side over the next 2-3 years...
Please god do not let the Spuds win the CL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Indeed. :pray:
I've already had a bad weekend, that would just finish me off :ilt:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippy
Mac76. Put your "S#urs trophy piss take" sign off back on! We are safe for another year :clap:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
His biggest failure was not building out his coaching team properly - developing players himself was fine when we were talking about just 1 or 2 at a time, like an Anelka or Henry, while the rest of the squad knew their business, but trying to take on half a team without help was never going to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobson's choice
That being said, looking at what we’ve been getting out of our current group of expensive, “experienced” flops, I’m starting to get a whole new appreciation for what those previous groups of kids actually achieved!
Me too. They had their flaws but top 4 every year and even made the latter stages of the CL on a couple of occasions. It's a shame we didn't have money to spend then because they weren't too far off from being a really competitive team.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
It did help though that Spurs and City were not at the level they're currently at. Not sure how the early Emirates-era team would fare now given the competition.
think that is the point the competition has stepped up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Spurs finished 1 point ahead of us :lol:.
One!
Yes, they got to the CL Final but let's face it they rode their luck a bit. They nearly went out in the group stages. You need a bit of luck in a cup competition and they got it.
If they are better than us then there really isn't much in it.
I don't understand why people think there's this huge gulf in class. There is between us and the top 2, we're at the same level as the next tier of clubs and way above everyone else.
Unless you are competing for the league title in your respective country, like any cup competiton, the CL is never a marker for how good a team you are. Look at Real Madrid. No one calls that a ‘great’ team but they turned up when it mattered for years in the CL. I mean, Spurs lost 13 times in the league - a third of their total games.
Similar to the way going on a domestic cup run doesn’t show how good a team you are in the league. We’ve certainly seen that enough in recent years
Pretty much how I see it.
We wouldn't have been a great side had we won the Europa League, we're not a terrible side because we lost the final. The league is a better measure of where we are and where they are.
We're a tier below the top 2 who are miles above us and everyone else. After those two we are as good as anyone and better than most.
People act like our squad is a complete disaster and that Spurs have it all sorted out. Not really. As you say they lost 13 league games. 13! :lol:
They pretty much won all the rest which is why they were in the top 4 at the end, but there's hardly this gulf in class between the sides. It boiled down to a point in the end.
Our ineptitude stopped us finishing top 4, theirs opened the door which meant we should have.
Tighten up in defence and we've got a good chance of top 4 next year. That's been our problem for years. Wenger could never sort it out. Can Emery?
Not with these players, going by last season. He had the whole season to work with them and I was hoping to see some improvement by the end, but frankly I didn't. Our defense, our away form... none of it improved. Even our home form went to shit at the end. Jury's still out on Emery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
It will be interesting to see what happens in the transfer window. Now that he's seen the squad he should have a good idea of what it needs.
Our away form did improve last season - it's probably the main reason why we were back in the chase for the top four, as our home form remained in great shape as per the previous season. The main problem is the away form didn't improve enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Although, as we were only two points off third - which is really our limit at the moment - I still think it's hard to see how much we can improve given the resources available to us. The points needed to secure top four have remained pretty much the same for the past 3/4 seasons and we aren't far off that.
The next challenge is to get back into the top four, but with third our limit, I'm not sure how different our performance levels will be - especially when you consider many of us thought third was there for the taking this season.
It's strange to think how a single win in either the league or the Europa could've put a completely different spin on things for many.
The real shame for me is that the players all peaked at slightly different times and moved on before they all got to play together at their best. No one had the patience to see it through in the end, but I guess you can’t blame them really - it was quite a leap of faith we were asking them to take in the project, and players only have finite careers. Only natural that the best of them would want to make the most of their best years...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Real Madrid not a great team after winning the CL 3 times in a row :lol: I've heard it all now, they were widely accepted to be the greatest club side due to their achievements, no other club has ever defended it their achievement was amazing and the quality of players they had unreal.
CL generally tells you who the best sides are, the top teams usually get through to the latter stages more often than not, Liverpool have been in the last 2 finals and are a fantastic team.
Our side is average (even Keown called them average recently), look at the personnel, who is actually a decent player, we have 4-5 decent players, other than that they're trash they really are, the defence is awful, the midfield is average, it's only up front and in goal we're decent. Even in a season where clubs have been handing a top 4 place to us on a plate we ended up 5th and frankly overall from the way we've played this season, average sums us up, Watford who got hammered 6-0 by City in the final outplayed us with 10 men for goodness sake. Chelsea wiped the floor with us in the Europa League final and they're hardly anything special, if they'd won 6 or 7-1 it wouldn't have been unjust, they outclassed us in the 2nd half.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I agree with most on here, this team needs to be dsmantled and we need to start again, the longer we keep this team together the longer we'll be seeing the team collapse like a house of cards. You're not going to like this but it's widely accepted that Wenger assembled a very average group players here and left the new manager with very little to work with, granted he didn't do a great job of that either, but he certainly has been helped by the rubbish left behind for him.
Compared to who?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Compared to the top 2, no. We are far below their level.
Compared to the sides who finished 3rd-6th? Yes, I guess so.
Compared to the PL as a whole? No, clearly we are significantly way above the average.
You really need to stop using that word or, if you’re going to, define your context. The word alone is meaningless.
Do you regard Spurs as average? The media sucked their cocks all season, they finished above us by a point.
There are only 2 sides who are better than us by any meaningful measure in the country. Hardly average.
You can cherry pick results from last season if you like, so can I.
We beat Chelsea, Spurs and Man Utd at home. We were unlucky to only draw away at Spurs and Utd.
See? It’s easy to cherry pick.
End of the day the top 2 finished miles above us and everyone else.
There’s virtually nothing between us and the next tier of teams.
Average in a general sense, I don't think we were impressive last season, if you analyse the season we had the 1st part where we started with 2 defeats and then went on a bit of a run, but in truth during that run we laboured to a number of wins and couldn't come in at half time leading for a long time, our away form was frankly embarassing as well. Then you have the collapse at the end which was let's face it a disaster, we couldn't buy a win and even struggled against 10 man Watford and were lucky to come out with the win as their 10 men dominated the game. Ending up 5th was more due to how poor the league was than how good we were, so yes the teams below us are also very average.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
In the cups we obviously were knocked out, but even in the Europa we were lacklustre for large parts, there were some awful results along the way it has to be said.
Chelsea had a poor season by their standards and Spurs finished the season badly, despite that we still couldn't beat them to 4th place, they literally handed it to us on a late and we turned it down. Spurs finished poorly I grant you, but player for player they're superior to us, this despite not buying a player since 2018! I think the reason the press like Spurs is because they play good football and the manager has done a decent job with them given he's spent no money, they're far from the finished article of course but with a bit of money they are far closer than we are, they need a bit of tinkering wherease we almost need a new team.
Any club on a given day can put in a decent performance and win, but what matters is where you are at the end of the season, how you've done in the major competitions and how you perform when there is pressure, not one off results. Spurs got into the CL and into the CL final, sure it's a cup competition but how many times did we try to reach the latter stages and get hammered? You haveto give them credit for beating, in form Dortmund, Man City (no mean feat) and then the peoples' favourites Ajax.
Anyway I'm not too interested in other clubs, I'm more interested in Arsenal and when I look at the players, aside from Leno, Aubameyang, Lacazette and Torreira (I'll give Guendouzi a bye as well as he's shown potential and is young, you could also argue Bellerin, but he's still unproven IMO, started well enough thn go inured but was awful the season before so the jury is out on him), what decent players do we actually have who you wouldn't say were not average last season?
There isn't really a general sense of the word. Average can only be understood in a context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
No, we weren't that impressive last season. Only 2 clubs in the country were consistently impressive.
After that we were as good as anyone and better than most. We were a 1 point off Spurs and 2 off Chelsea.
You think a team who finished 1 point above us are better player for player?!
They lost 13 league games! They were in the top 4 because, inexplicably, they won most of the rest but it's so bizarre you think that a team who finished on 71 points need a "bit of tinkering" and a team who finished on 70 need a "new team". How are they "far closer" than we are? They finished 27 points off the top, we finished 28. We're both miles away from the level of the top 2 and as you say we really should have finished above them.
What matters is where you are at the end of the season, you say. Well, Spurs finished with 0 trophies to our 0, and they finished 1 place higher in the table and 1 point better off. Their CL run was admittedly impressive but let's not forget they (I think) lost their first 3 group games. They only got through the group because of a late equaliser against Barca and I think they had to rely on the other result going their way too. They do (as much as it hurts to admit it) deserve some credit for their CL run but they rode their luck a bit at times and end of the day they came away potless again.
You say Chelsea had a poor season by "their standards". They actually got 2 points more than the previous season. Since they won the title a couple of years ago they've not been great. I'm not sure what "their standards" are, the season before they won the title they finished with 50 points in 10th.
Our main problem, as always, is defence. We scored more than anyone other than the top two but we conceded 51 goals, significantly more than any of the top 4 (it was more than City and Liverpool combined, embarrassingly!). And there's a mentality issue as well. Those are the biggest issues I see. I think they're perfectly sort-outable without going nuclear and starting again. We don't have the budget to anyway. A couple of additions and we could be better. Not at Liverpool or City's level but we are miles away. Let's be realistic and start by targetting the top 4. We were close this year (we weren't last year). The points total to get into the top 4 was admittedly a little lower this year but not by that much, it's certainly doable next year. There was some improvement from the previous season. We got 7 more points, we got to the final of the Europa instead of the semi-final. But winning it wouldn't have made it a great season any more than losing it makes it a terrible one.
I'm giving Emery a C for this season. Maybe a C+ as we got to the Europa final. He has work to do and there will be pressure on him next year if we don't improve. We're not going to make the leap from where we are to Champions in one season. I question with our owner whether we can anyway. But we don't need to rebuild the entire team to improve. Let's get into the top 4 first, then we can try and push on.
Spurs alos collapsed at the end of the season, but overall they were certainly more impressive than us, I think they probably need 2-3 new additions wherease I reckon we need more like 7 or 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Just look at the squad the defence is awful, Monreal, Koscielny, Mustafi all have to go due to age in the case of the 1st two and quality in the case of the latter, that's 3 players right there, Lichsteiner is also gone already so we need a new player to replace him, that's 4 now.
Then we have the average midfield, Xhaka has to go I'm sorry but he's a liabilty, it's been shown the guy has made the most mistakes leading to goals than any other PL player, he's slow ponderous and offers nothing, that's 5. Mhkitaryan is on too much money and hasn't turned up since he moved here there's 6. Then we have Ozil, it's widely accepted he's finished at the top level and needs to be disposed of, that's 7. Elneny again not really good enough, 8 if you replace him oh and don't forget we've lost Ramsey probably the pick of our midfielders this season.
Cech is gone so we probably need a new keeper is Martinez isn't promotoed, that's 9. Welbeck is also gone so we need a 3rd forward, that's 10. Even if you brought in a couple kids ESR and Nelson and Even Chambers being the obvious choices you'd still need around 7 players if you want a decent side because all of those listed aren't up to the job, but realistically that goes back up to 8 as we'd need a more experienced winger than those guys.
You keep saying we need 2-3 players, but that's just not right, 2-3 barely fixes the defence. Granted we probably won't do a fraction of that because let's face it we have little money and the owner won't put any in, so next season we'll probably be also rans again and because Emery is not a top coach looking at him, we may well miss out on top 4 again as well, as I expect Spurs and Man U will spend big and Chelsea also will if they aren't under a transfer ban.
To be honest, if Wolves can add a bit more quality to their squad I can see them coming above us as well if we keep hold of many of the current lot, we've had a lot of these guys for years and they've shown they just aren't up to the job and nothing you can do will ever make them up to it.
I agree our defence is a problem, but so is out midfield to be honest, we're losing Ramsey as well so it's already weaker, there's very little quality in there now, very little creativity and not enough battling quality either, I haven't even mentioned Iwobi in this who IMO is at best a squad player who time and time again can't deliver a cross and of course Kolasinac a player who can't defend and wasn't very good last season, what will Emery suddenly change in this lot that he couldn't do last season exactly, I can't see any of those guys getting better or being up to the job, they've had long enough to show they are after all.
If we do indeed get jut 40 million then we're in real trouble and we'll have to pray some of the kids come good, but statistically (and given our poor youth record over the years) it's unlikely to be the answer, we may find one decent player who makes it out of a dozen but we'd be bery very lucky to find more, our youth academy isn't exactly outstanding and the only one who's done anything of note (in another country however) is Nelson.
I know a lot of people talk about this guy and that guy being good, but in the end 99% of these guys don't make it, it's just fans wanting to have some outstanding youngster come through, truth is we haven't found anyone world class coming through the ranks in years, we're not like Southampton, Ajax or even Man City and Chelsea who seem to find quality young players (the latter two seem to buy the right ones).
I was thinking about this yesterday and considering if he's just the easy one to blame for our fall from grace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Looking at the amount we've spent (please let's not get into net spend as you know what I think about that!) over the past few years in pure expenditure, we're looking at around £270m - that's a lot of fucking money! That's around £90m per season, which is far from terrible, given the model we're trying to work with. Which I don't personally have a problem with.
Is the owner really to blame, or Gazidis for mismanagement of funds, and Wenger, for being to selfish and not going sooner?
In particular, Wenger was backed with money for Laca, Auba, wages for Ozil and Mikhi in a short space of time (6 months I think). It was a team built to get us back into the top four after falling out of it, but it never happened. And now we're paying for it.
Wenger waited years to have more money to spend, and by the time he was given it, way too much was wasted. If it was better spent, we could still be in the top four and perhaps even higher.
I mentioned this earlier in this thread or another, I'm not quite sure. But giving the limitation on our funds, which will always be smaller than others unless we sell big and reinvest, how much more can we improve points wise, seeing as we are already 2 points off third?
Again, I have no idea how you conclude that a side that finished on 70 points need 7 or 8 new players and a side that finished on 71 need only 2 or 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
In the head to heads we beat them easily at home and were unlucky not to do so away. They're not all that.
Ramsey is the main loss for us. At the time his departure was announced I wasn't too worried, but have to say he was outstanding last season and will be a big loss for us.
Other than that, you spend a lot of time in your post ripping apart our squad, saying how terrible it is.
But you still need to explain how you figure that our squad is so inferior to Spurs' when they finished 1 points above us.
You're imagining a gulf in class which just isn't borne out by the games between the teams or the final league table.
I think Spurs had the distraction of the CL which we didn't have, your could argue we had the Europa league but as we know the CL is a different level. The other reason is their squad needs beefing up a bit, since they haven't signed anyone since 2018 they are a bit short on numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Player for player though they are superior and they certainly don't need the same level of surgery as we do, again most people will tell you that. Chelsea were a few points above us, yet they outclassed us in the EL final and looked a level above in reality,, I know this was only one game bu the gulf in class looked pretty big on the day, it wasn't like it was a close game, they could have easily scored 7, you wouldn't expect that in a final after 3 weeks of rest.
Not sure the league is always that indicative of quality as every team plays the teams at a different time and form and injuries (and luck sometimes) play a part in results, there's the other competitions factor as well which could mean more games than another team which can stretch smaller squads more. I don't think it's as clear cut as you like to think, but watching Spurs and watching us, they look a better side to most.
Personally I would prefer to win the CL than the league, being Champions of Europe means more than Champions of one country and there's a lot more prestige attached to it.
I would argue that. And while yes, of course the CL is a higher level of opposition we were still - towards the end - playing pretty decent sides and it's still games which take their toll and Thursday is close to the weekend so there's less gap before the next league game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Then all those people also need to explain how they only managed to finish a point ahead of us...Quote:
Player for player though they are superior and they certainly don't need the same level of surgery as we do, again most people will tell you that.
My explanation is this:
I'd say their first choice 11 is better than our first choice 11, I'd concede that. But these days it's a squad game and we have more depth than Spurs.
Overall it adds up to there not being much between the clubs right now.
The Europa League final was disappointing, to say the least. We shouldn't have been swatted aside like that. But for the first 30 minutes we dominated, we weren't clinical enough.
We crumbled too easily but the league table shows there's not much between the sides overall. In the league games we both won our home ties but the league table is the real test of where you are.
Where we are is a mile below the top 2 but within the next group of teams we're holding our own. We don't need 7 new players to push for top 4 next year, we did that this year with the squad we have.
Replace Ramsey, sort out the defence and we have a change of improving. Right now that's all I'm looking for, so long as we're heading in the right direction and we push on next season I'll be content enough.
Whether Emery is the man to help us do that remains to be seen.
:haha:Quote:
Not sure the league is always that indicative of quality