If it’s about ALL matters related to Arsenal why not go and support another team that satisfies your morals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
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If it’s about ALL matters related to Arsenal why not go and support another team that satisfies your morals?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Millwall?Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Support another team? Why? I can barely bring myself to follow along with what's happening at a club I've supported to varying degrees for decades. What could I hope to find by starting again elsewhere, given the trajectory of football? Maybe a club down at the very grass roots? It's possible. But then the Covid shit. The game's dead really. For the fans at least. Players are all mostly shit, most of them can't kick a ball. Governing bodies are milking it to the most ludicrous degree. Greedy pigs in the boardrooms. Merchandising, more focus on international fan markets than the local area. Players jumping ship every 5 minutes. Screaming headlines, flashing graphics - when nothing has happened at all. Cheating as a virtue. Loyalty for a price.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
You MIGHT get an odd moment once or twice in maybe a month of football where something happens on the pitch and it grabs your attention. Provides entertainment. Different if you are into it to a professional level I suppose, it might be fun then to be watching shape, triangles, pressing, blah. But managers like Pep turned all that shit into a modern art form that doesn't look anything like entertainment for the average fan. Boring. Expensive. Culturally and traditionally adrift. Tribally bereft. Brash, swirling, spinning, empty shell.
It's what becomes of excellence and passion and endeavour and competition when a bunch of leeches descend with their nest and rot a thing inside out. When results are measured on balance sheets. All that's left is inertia and a residue made up of a billion fans' loyalty once it has been squeezed and desiccated.
Then there are days when I really don't like the game at all. It comes from remembering what the game was and comparing it to what it is. Am I wrong?
For a younger fan, I can get why this may not be the case. It's about perception. If you were never aware of what something was then you might be able to accept and even enjoy what it has become. You say it's the world in general and you are probably right, which is sadder on a grand scale. Or, it could me me getting older and cynical. Trouble is, on those rare occasions when a football match somehow escapes its shroud I can still recognise it and enjoy it. Very rare though. Like a ghost.
Yes naturally because he did nothing wrong, that may be true but we do also know Arsenal are not exactly generous when it comes to money, it's now a ruthless business that seems to care about one thing, not the fans, not what happens on the pitch, just how much money can be made, so I personally doubt he got anything more than he was entitled to, certainly not the 2 years you mention, especially as they're clearly trying to cut costsQuote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Treating your employees and being successful are not mutually exclusive, you can do both and certainly for someone who has worked here for 27 years it's morally the right thing to do, as for bringing him back, well I think that only came out once Ozil offered to pay his wages and made Arsenal look even worse than they did so for me it's an afterthought.
As for the money spent on transfers, it's all the same, if we have 45 million for transfers we certainly have 30k or whatever it is to suppose a long standing employee who has been loyal. As I said we're owned by a billionaire and it's a drop in the ocean for him, the damage he's done to him and the club is far worse than the salary they've saved, a mere tiny fraction of what the playing staff and manager etc earn.
You can look at it however you like, but IMO, it's plain wrong and just reflects terribly on the club, a club that many fans already think has just one focus.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
We know nothing of Arsenal's finances and what they do or do not give their staff, if you know please share the facts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
As I said in response to Letters's post we do not know what kind of financial severance package Gunnersaurus was given! All you are doing is speculating and you do not have one bit of factual evidence to support what you are stating.
You use the example of the transfer and then state about 30k for Gunnersaurus, for all we know Arsenal may have paid him off 100K! We don't know...so to complain from the rooftops about a situation you are not privy to is plain weird!
It's quite telling how quiet Gunnersaurus has been, maybe he his happy with his severance package considering Arsenal stated that he will be re-employed once things are back to normal!
Quote:
My point about Gunnersaurus is based around the fact that certain posters on here and people in the media are jumping up and down about a redundancy, temporary one at that without knowing the true facts at hand. Does anybody know what kind of financial severance package Gunnersaurus was given? I certainly don't and without these facts I think it's ignorant to jump up and down and point fingers.
The reason I have said the above is because a few of my friends were made redundant through COVID 19 but were given financial severance packages that equated to almost 2 years salaries with the maximum allowed tax free lump sum. I am not saying Arsenal did this with Gunnersaurus, but we just don't know, it's ignorant to start spouting without the details. The redundancy severance package he was given may well have been way above any furlough payment he would receive if he was kept on!
Not only that, but most of the articles relating to Arsenal temporarily relieving him of his duties, have been reported as that he was Sacked! He wasn't sacked! How ignorant can some people be, read the articles from the Athletic or the Guardian and it clearly states the situation in detail regarding relieving him of his duties. Arsenal have even said that it's a temporary measure and he will be back when things get back to normal...whatever normal will be in the future.
Also furlough scheme is not really an option for players at premier league clubs due to their high wages, see article below;
https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/can-...h13l9hy1zmbk6n
I think the optics of making Gunnersaurus redundant on the same day as activating Partey's release clause for the reasons i've given above are not linked and are irrelevant given nobody knows what kind of severance package Gunnersaurs was given. Gunnersaurus may actually be finanically better off now! So all this talk of disillusionment may be a waste of time given we do not know the financials behind the redundancies!
I also think Mesut Ozil's pathetic cheap shot at the club via Instagram regarding offering to pay Gunnersaurus's wages exposed Mesut for the complete tosser he is. This is a man who refused to take a paycut when all the other members of the team did, most of the other team members are on a quarter or less than what he earns. Not only that, but he happily picked up his 8million bonus in the midst of sitting at home doing sweet FA. Yet people still fell hook line and sinker for it, Ozil is a thief, a conman, he is the one we should be disillusioned with!
I understand your point, but.....football / society in general has changed and for the worse IMO. Highlighting small points among the shit show of what happens today is kind of fruitless IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
We could complain all day every day about a multitude of things.
I doQuote:
Originally Posted by selassie
I've noticed ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
We can get a decent idea based on their previous behaviour, the way they conduct business and the fact they decided to make staff redundant when they didn't have to during a pandemic.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Ignoring that however, getting rid of someone who has worked for you for 27 years and then spending 45 million + fees and wages is just plain wrong, there's no defending it.
As for Gunnersaurus, well not everybody shouts it from the rooftops when they get made redundant, that's more something that happens in modern culture, so that's a moot point.
What previous behaviour?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Have you ever thought to consider the redundancy pay offs may have been much better than furlough offerings?
You do realize that Redundancy payouts can sometimes benefit people, especially redundancy payouts from corporate firms such as Arsenal.
Some people are actually better off if they are paid off with a full 12 months salary, with 30k of that salary being tax free!
Moreover, Gunnersaurus hasn't been permanently made redundant!
When I talk about optics I mean how it looks. And how it looks is that they are driving trucks of money up to Ozil's house and to Atletico Madrid to get Partey while shitting on the little man, the man who has quietly worked for the club for decades and whose salary is trivial compared with the amounts they're spunking elsewhere. You do make a good point about his redundancy pay, he might actually have done pretty well out of this but people are fed up of these prima-donna, here today, gone tomorrow footballers getting obscene amounts of money. Especially when they're not fit to lace the boots of some of our best players. It just feels increasingly like clubs have lost any connection with their fans or the "common man", we identify a lot more with the Gunnersaurus dude than we do these mercenary footballers. So when we see him getting shafted (again, I agree he might not have been, but that's how it looks) then it doesn't come across well. At best doing it on the same day was tone deaf.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
From what I understand Ozil asked for certain assurances before agreeing a pay cut. What are the club going to do with that money? Are they going to assure that none of the non-playing staff will get made redundant? Arsenal refused to give those assurances so Ozil told them to get stuffed. People are disillusioned with Ozil but they're disillusioned with lots of things in the modern game. Arsenal have not covered themselves in glory with any of this.Quote:
I also think Mesut Ozil's pathetic cheap shot at the club via Instagram regarding offering to pay Gunnersaurus's wages exposed Mesut for the complete tosser he is. This is a man who refused to take a paycut when all the other members of the team did,
The thing is though they didn't need to furlough him, they have enough money as demonstrated by the 45 million they spent.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
I would hardly call redundancy a benefit, yes some people accept voluntary redundancy, perhaps realising their days are numbered and they'd better take what they can get, or perhaps they are ready to retire or to have a change, but what happens if you take the money then 2 years later you still haven't found a new job? It also creates uncertainty in your life because you don't have a regular income, you won't find too many people who will paint redundancy as beneficial to be honest, most people will class redundancy as a negative (there's always anomalies but that's generally the case).
Well he has now that Ozil offered to pay his salary, but if they are paying him handsomely and he'll be back in a year why make him redundant at all, it would surely cost they more in the scenario you painted?
I suspect the club are saving a fair amount and he probably didn't get a lot.
Pretty much agree with much of this :faint: :lol:, still doubt he did that well out of redundancy knowing Arsenal, I think they'd pay what they have to, it seems to be how the club operates these days, or at least it's the impression they give!Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Also think regarding the pay cut that Ozil was right to make a stand, the cost cuts should have been used to protect jobs, not to go in someone elses back pocket, I think footballers are overpaid but after all the club agreed to this so if they ask them to take a pay cut in a time like this they're entitled to ask that the money be spent in the appropriate way.
I think selassie has a point about redundancy. I know people who have cartwheeled out of the door of my organisation, they're either getting on and it's a way for them to retire early or they fancy a career break and they get enough to not work for a while and take stock.
If you can't get a job after 2 years then you can't be that employable, although when your CV is
"1993-2020 - Football Mascot"
Then you might struggle :lol:
It's just the way it looks and the way clubs have treated playing staff and non playing staff differently.
Holy shit he's been the mascot since the year I was born.
Does that mean I'm gonna die soon? :unsure:
Second WAAAAAVE!Quote:
Originally Posted by WMUG
Yes, I'm afraid so. But we'll bring you back once covid is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by WMUG
You can trust us.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Agree with everything. Ozil is a fucking fraud. He should move to Turkey and start living with his lover Erdogan. Spare us your holier than thou attitude.
So you are talking about perception? How it looked to the blind man?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Without the finer details...of which some points I have raised such as redundancy payouts I think it's a discussion / debate that is a moot point.
As I have said on numerous occasions, he may not have actually been shafted! He may be financially better off and don't forget he will be coming back into his role once things get back to normal, so essentially he has been temporarily relieved of his duties.
Until you have the facts it's a conversation based on opinion! It's irrelevant!Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
P.S. The players have no rights whatsoever in regards to asking or directing the club to spend the money in the way they want. It's not how things work mate.
And I've agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
But what's the headline going to be?
Classic politician response from Letters ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Justice for Dinosaur One!
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
We're never going to know the facts though, but generally speaking redundancy is something people prefer to avoid on the whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Well Arsenal wanted him to take a pay cut, they had no right to ask that either as he's contracted to be paid a certain amount, but they did, he wanted to make sure if he did it went to what he deemed the right people, they wouldn't assure him this so he didn't take a pay cut, he's 100% entitled to ask where the money from his pay cut will go.
Just because people prefer redundancy doesn't make it a bad thing based on some of the examples I have given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
If it was pretty obvious why Arsenal asked the players to take a paycut?! FFS we are going through a Global Pandemic :haha:
Let's be honest, Arsenal are owned by a billionaire, he doesn't need the players to take a paycut or indeed for people to lose job, he could easily cover it, I'm not going to lose any sleep over Arsenal struggling :lol:. On top of that Arsenal went out and spent 45 million on a player, that doesn't sound like a club struggling for money to me, so yes we are in a global pandemic but we needn't be so ruthless.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
As it happens I think players maybe should have taken a pay cut, but to help others, not if it means others losing their jobs, but as I said Kroenke could easily take the hit if he so wished.
The no fans in stadium thing is kinda karma for Arsenal really, they took fans turning up for granted for years and charged them sky high prices, kinda ironic they now can't have any fans really, the club didn't develop the other areas of revenue as much as they could as the gate receipts were so high, very shortsighted really.
There's a difference though. If the pay cut was so some bankster could get his monthly pound of flesh, or the share price could be propped up for the loyal shareholders, that's a bit different than using the cash to essentially keep the club intact, including the support staff who aren't on the big cash. Indeed, even gathering up all the cash from these overpaid hoofers, it's a piss in a bucket in terms of doing much outside the confines of the club. The only place it could be really effective is to ensure lower paid staff didn't lose their jobs. I'm with Ozil on this. Make sure the money will be used properly.
That's as far as my support for Ozil goes though. He should be on the pitch, adding the creativity we so desperately need. And whether it's mostly his fault, or the club's fault this isn't happening, it's outrageous nonetheless. Heads need to be knocked together and people need to be reminded it's about sport and excellence and competition. Unless it's not.
That should have happened too - and (conspiracy theory) maybe it did? We won't be clear on how this has been handled until next year. So I won't condemn Stan outright, until the evidence is in. But absolutely. In the good times he can mortgage the club to buy his ranches. In the bad times he needs to be there too, paying it back so there's a partnership rather than a one way street. We'll see, won't we. It will be very illustrative to see how Stan behaved when the club was most in need.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Yes I agree, there were redundancies though, he may have helped but for me those jobs should not have been lost during this period, it's the little people basically being discarded because they don't matter and aren't valued, we've got multi million pound a year footballers and somehow we still have to get rid of people on a relative pittance (I know the players took a pay cut too but 15% is a drop in the ocean for them).Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Not that I think it should be down to the players, but for me if anyone should take py cuts then highest paid t the club should take the biggest hit because in the end they still have plenty even with a pay cut.
From a fan point of view it's great we signed partey don't get me wrong, but for people to lose their jobs and then for us to splash the cash doesn't sit well with me, I just think noone should have lost their job.
A billionaire doesn't have infinite amount of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
You say you won't lose any sleep over Arsenal struggling yet you would have been the first on here complaining that Arsenal haven't strengthened their team if we choose (as you put it) to continue paying our playing and non-paying staff full wages in preference to strengthening the team. As I stated on numerous occasions...I don't think they are linked but hey ho.
You talk as if Arsenal are the only club in world football who have taken on a cost cutting exercise.
How do you know that Kroenke could have taken a hit? Are you privy to his financial circumstances? Do you personally know where his money is tied up or where it is spent?
Unfortunately, in this world, the little people don't matter. So if a club has to make cuts in the short term it's almost certainly looking at who can be replaced easily once things return to normal, or whatever passes as normal. And that's not going to be the big boys in the boardroom, or the people with football knowledge, or the players. Realistically, the support staff are most expendable. But they also have the lowest wages, so it really does become a mean endeavour to make savings there, unless we're so up against the wall financially that pennies count.
That's not really the main point though. For me, I don't want the club to be talking about "the Arsenal Way" from now on, as if we are somehow different and above it all. We're down in the dirt with the rest of them. Everyone has known that for a long time, and this is just another illustration of it. Let's put that to one side now and just call it like it is - a business that also happens to be a football club. Same as all the rest. And getting rid of the dinosaur is ironic because he's a part of that Arsenal Way that was sacrificed by the great Kroenke/ Wenger project - and I can't wait to get to Wenger's explanation for all this in his book. He says he loves the sport, he loves the club, and then he goes on about sustainability, as if that was ever a reality in the casino, cash wheelbarrow world of modern football. All a scam to preach constraint to the little guy who gets it up the arse, and provide bounty to the few who are high on the hog come thick or thin.
As always, it works out in favour of those who have at the expense of those collecting the crumbs. I'm realistic enough to know that's the way it is. I don't agree with it And I would never contemplate trying to excuse those who benefit from it, because they do a relentless job of that themselves. Maybe the dinosaur is walking off into the sunset entirely content. But he's another part of what football used to be, that has also walked into that same sunset. And that's my main issue.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
The guy has plenty of money, he owns clubs left right and centre and he's also married to someone worth an absolute fortune, he won't end up on the streets don't worry :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
From a fan point of view yes, but from a human point of view no, but as I said we're owned by a billionaire both could have been done.
They're not, but any club that makes people redundant in a time like this and then spends 45 million on some footballer doesn't come out well out of it, that goes for any club that behaves this way.
I could throw that straight back at you. How do you know Kroenke doesn't have plenty of money? How do you know he has taken a hit? How do you know Gunnersaurus got a decent settlement? How do you know Ozil isn't being treated unfairly? You just like everyone else forms an opinion based on things you believe rather than fact.
RightQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I guess if you look at things simplistically then you are spot on he has loads of money, but wealth and actual available cash flows are two different things...but you know that right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
I don't know if Kroenke has plenty of money or not, my above point about wealth vs cash flows is what I was driving at with you in my earlier post but it seems to be going way over your head.
I gave examples, not facts..not opinions, examples of why I felt the likes of you and others could be wrong about some of the things you are saying because you are looking at everything simplistically and at a high level.
What we know of the Ozil situation and it's been reported widespread across the media, Ozil has even admitted it himself. See below;
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a9668161.html
It's not an opinion, it's a fact that he was the only first team player to REFUSE take a pay cut, why should he be exempt? Especially given he earns way and above what anybody else earns.
Ozil got slaughtered for that, didn't he? In the media and by the fans and here on this forum. I never checked, but did the club speak out on this, or did they leave him to twist? That, I suspect, would have (at least partly) informed his later decision to dive into the dinosaur issue. I don't know, did they club ever say, fair enough, each player must choose? Or did they leave him to twist?
NQ, read through my posts...try and understand the points I am making on redundancies, cost cutting, severance packages. Redundancies through COVID 19 are not as simplistic as you are making it out to be. What you and Zim are saying on face value makes sense, but without having access to both financial and personal information regarding the redundancies / cost cutting your points are largely neither here nor there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn