Got to say the ref hasn't been on our side but it's not really made the difference, we've just been too slow, careless and unimaginative
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Got to say the ref hasn't been on our side but it's not really made the difference, we've just been too slow, careless and unimaginative
we're almost ignoring our left hand side, it's really frustrating
To produce this after that West Ham game is a real sickener and says a lot about where this team is at right now.
Refreshingly good reffing. He's ignored all the cissy stuff and waved the play (such as it is) on. And the linos picked up his lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Fulham free kick hits the bar :lol:
usual crap corner to the near post, we're so shit at set pieces
Whilst I respect your consistency on the issue. It has never been legitimate to barge a player over to win the ballQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
The only good thing the ref has done is to book Jimenez for timewastingQuote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Trossard :rolleyes:
Appalling by Trossard. Unacceptable on any level.
FT 2-1
What a disastrous December.
You can't be seriously suggesting the ref has influenced the result here? Afraid not. It's all down to one team being prepared to work and the other not being arsed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
2-1 FT. Everybody stinking the joint out.
terrible performance, stodgy, careless and unimaginative - it's going to be pretty embarrassing in the FAC v Liverpool next week
Admittedly didn't watch many games last season and have hardly watched any this. But there seems to be a major backward step taking place. Why they think they can compete without a striker is a bit of a mystery.
The joke is we will probably win that. Good record against Liverpool in the fa cup going back to Cardiff 2001.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Despite Letters claiming that I am over exaggerating top four is very much in question.
Our season was being propped up by the strength of our defence, now they’re out of form results have gone pear shaped because the forwards are, as they have been all season absolutely shit.
It’s been a while since we’ve looked this bad but we found a way out of it once and we’ll have to do so again.
No, if you read the match thread properly i made it clear earlier tha he didn't probably affect the result, but he did let far too much go in terms of some of the Fulham challnegesQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
we're only one point ahead of Spuds now, we were miles ahead of them not so long ago
And he wasn't a dick who joyously brandished a red when Saliba made a half challenge on a player going through on goal. So swings and roundabouts but mostly a ref who didn't try to make the game all about himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
A couple of bad results and the table swings very easily because it’s so tight at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Our only concern right now should be how the fuck do we get a tune out of the guys who were so good last season but now look like Sunday league players.
Its more than just the striker from what I'm seeing. I mean even if we had Toney, there was absolutely no service, so what magic would he be expected to conjure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
We really messed up this summer, splurging all that money on a failed project like Harvetz, overspending for a decent Rice and putting ourselves in debt for Raya....just plain old stupid.
Cleary, we overestimated our current crop. Martinelli is an inconsistent player and will be so for all his career if you ask me. Odegaard is a show pony. Saka....well I'm not sure he can move on to the next level unless he has competition and sees the need to improve. That won't happen under a manager that thinks the way this manager thinks. In short our front 4 and the future we are so tirelessly building on their shoulders is nothing special. And yes it's deja vous, Wenger team youth all over again.
I'll hold my hands up. I honestly thought the 3 players I mentioned above could be our backbone and take us back to the glory days... but right now I'd sell at least 2 of them in January if I had the chance and probably bin the manager too.
I'm really upset but I expect i'll be re-echoing this sentiment again in a month or two.
I think I’m definitely guilty of underestimating the work Xhaka and Partey did last season.
And not so long before that they were miles ahead of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
It’s been a strange season, no one has really been consistent. Which is probably good in a way, makes it interesting and unpredictable.
It's the battle in the box from corners (if they ever get past the first defender) and set-pieces that require a physical striker to wear down the defence. In the last 2 games I watched the West Ham and Fulham defences grow in confidence as they totally bossed the midfielders and wingers who were pressed into service in the striker role. As for Eddie, he needs to hit the gym, big time. He has good feet but he can only ever be a supplement to a Giroud type who will pick up the bumps and bruises and cause real pain for the defence in return. A striker would also open up space for Saka and Martinelli who can be easily neutralised by double-team defending because there's no threat in the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
weird, isn't it? I miss Giroud. He'd make a massive difference now.
Is Ivan Toney any good? Is he a proper striker, or another tip-tap merchant?
Good striker but I don’t think it would change too much given how feeble our construction of play is at the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I think his physical presence in the box would help us immensely but I think that would be a short term fix rather than needing to adapt how we play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
We need to be far more direct, given the absolute pace merchants we have on the wing I don’t get why we are so reticent to use the long ball…it works for Liverpool.
Not the long ball, except on occasion to mix things up, but the high temp, direct ball which we already know these players are capable of delivering. Right now the passes to the wide men seem to be deliberately played short and to feet (or even behind them) so they always have to start from standing when they want to take on a defender. It pretty much eliminates any pace advantage they might have and gives the defence the time it needs to shut down the routes forward. And Jesus, or Eddie, the supposed strikers, end up square to the wide men rather than trying to make space ahead of tme. A lot of this is also down to Odegard thinking he's some sort of orchestral maestro when in fact he's a bung that guarantees every move breaks down unless one of his 1% moments happens and the highlights reel can sing his praises once more. If this team robbed a bank they'd throw away the safe key and try to pick the lock instead - making sure they spent enough time doing it to guarantee being caught.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I said Martinelli has been the biggest downgrade this season but I don’t think Odegaard is far behind. He has become stale as fuck, needs so many touches to play the ball and loves a party trick for no reason.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I agree with most of this.
There are 4 problems that I am seeing with this team.
1. We seem to be playing a possession game for the sake of it. Control is only effective when you do something with it. IMO the West Ham game was more revealing than Fulham - which was simply a poor as fuck performance. There's no point in having a squillion touches in the opposition box if it does not lead to goals. We are ponderous and predictable in our build up and I fear teams have worked us out. Yes, a predator striker might finish chances that we throw away with poor execution/decision making but Eddie was formerly known as the poacher, and we have seen how his form has dropped off a cliff. There is often never any space for our forwards to even have a sight of goal let alone score and as NQ says we have no tempo or verticality, and teams have all the time in the world to organise their defence.
2. We play high up the pitch with our sterile possession, and this invites the opposition to play on the counter - which we are suddenly vulnerable to. What happened to our impregnable defence? Because of the tight spaces our ponderous build up play results in it is almost inevitable that a pass will go astray, and having committed players forwards our shape in defence is the opposite of what we fail to cope with at the other end of the pitch. The opposition inevitably scores against us with mininal chances, while we can't score from countless ones.
3. Arteta seems to have stifled unpredicatbility and individual billiance by tying in our players to a system where they look robotic. Players come in and out of form, but where everyone is below par, like against Fulham you have to look at the system. Why is Saka seemingly unwilling to unable to beat a man (or two in his case - albeit that he has the talent to do so) to create space? Martinelli? Why does doubling or tripling on Saka not create space for others? We cannot seem to cope with game state - so when we go a goal down we keep doing the same thing. We don't mix it up. We have seen this before, 2 seasons ago, and the manager seems to think that because on paper we have upgraded certain players it will work.
4. Fatigue. You cannot expect players to play an exceptionally demanding system that requires 100% effectiveness week in week out without seeing a drop off. This is mental as well as physical. It beggars belief that we should have handed new contracts to the likes of Riess Nelson, and kept ESR but never play them - apart from bit part minutes that are pointless as regards getting them match ready. You can't even play Rice every single match in a very physically demanding role and expect him to maintain his exceptional ceiling. We look flat and jaded - and Fulham was the exemplar of this. It's a real worry that this is happening half way through the season, and you have to wonder how this team will fare come March/April.
If we are honest - we have looked unconvincing in 40% of our games this season - even where we have taken 3 points. This team will not win the league.
The question that immediately comes to me is do we have the type of squad of players where we can drastically change our tactics.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
I can’t find anything in your post to disagree with, and it largely expands on my own thoughts. What I have also noticed is a lack of understanding between certain players as well. Martinelli and Havertz is one example of that, against Fulham it felt that neither were able to read the intention of the other, there were a couple of times where the potential for an overlap was mistimed so Havertz couldn’t release Martinelli in space on the left and ended up passing into the congested centre.
I think either way there needs to be more done to give Saka and Martinelli the chance to play in behind their respective full back, and then players like Havertz, Odegaard and Jesus need to be doing more to make themselves available for a cut back….because even if we don’t drastically alter our style of play it often feels like for all the touches we have in the opposition box…no one is busting a gut to get on the end of something.
Yes - Martinelli seems lost unless Trossard plays on the left - yet Trossard is IMO clearly not a left 8 and plays better as an impact sub as an alternative to Martinelli. I think we all underestimated the synergy between Martinelli and Xhaka - which he does not have with Havertz. I think that Martinelli is suffering from being marooned on the left touchline, and we seem to have reverted to banging crosses into the box - when the opposition has had time to reset and (unless Havertz plays up front) we don't have a target man. FWIW if we carry on playing this way, neither Toney nor anyone else will make a season changing difference. There's never any space, as you say.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Saka is being marked out of the game. As I've said I don't understand why we can't seem to use this to our advantage to make space where one of his often 2 or 3 markers is taken out of the game. You are 100% right that noone is making runs from deep - and its difficult to understand why we never seem to have a free runner - given that this always introduces unpredictability - as we see so often when the opposition scores. Our lack of goals from open play is a serious concern.
It is as though our players have been instructed to keep their shape no matter what. Is Arteta slow to understand that we have been worked out and almost all teams now have learnt their lessons from the likes of Villa and Newcastle who demonstrated how to keep us at bay?
In terms of squad - I do think we have the players - Havertz; Martinelli; ESR; Reiss Nelson - to make the differnce and cause some unpredictability and chaos - but possession and predictablity seem to have become the be all and end all for our manager.
Martinelli is an interesting one, even when he is found in space he has an infuriating tendency to cut inside rather than get in behind his man but then rather than take a shot on he will pass it to Havertz, Odegaard, Jesus etc
Now Saka cuts inside as well but normally into the box to either get a shot away or square it for someone else arriving, the one time Martinelli had the beating of his fullback he got in the box got a shot away and the rebound was tapped in by Saka.
I think there’s a general reluctance when playing out to run with the ball, and the players are always looking to see if there is a pass on, so even if we have a potential break the movement is too slow and gives teams time to get back. Liverpool on Monday scored their opening goal because Newcastle had overcommitted and they are more prepared to be direct getting the ball forward from their own defensive third.
I’ve said many times we lack a proper box to box midfielder, and because we prize having full backs that give us greater numbers in the middle we often sacrifice pace on the wings. Rice is excellent at reading the play and I think can take the ball forward but really he needs to be partnered with someone who will also drop deep to win the ball which Havertz doesn’t do (we play two central attacking midfielders which congests things in the opponents half and means we have fewer players winning the ball deeper to get the balance right in terms of transitional phases)
Also both Havertz and Odegaard have a tendency to be sloppy in possession, even though the former is generally good at Holding up the ball because of his physical strength.
Although we’d still have difficulties, I do think the lack of a target man doesn’t help either. Jesus wants too much to be involved with play outside the box and therefore is rarely in a position to be found (and is often guilty of fluffing chances even when he is)
I don’t think we need to fundamentally change the way we play, I think we need to adapt it. Be quicker and more decisive, stop this obsession with this Tika-Taka football which eschews a traditional striker and which we don’t have enough technically gifted players for it anyhow.
Partey has proven to be a disastrous loss because no one else can progress play through the middle like he can. Even Xhaka, regardless of what we thought of him was very effective with his range passing and could easily release Saka and Martinelli into space. Odegaard can be useful closer to the box but he can’t influence play from deeper which is what we need to get things moving faster.
There’s no chaos in our team anymore, it’s too predictable and rigid. Everyone is taking too many touches and playing it safe. Feels like no one is willing to take a shot now unless they’ve worked themselves into a perfect opening to shoot.
Most of the season has been stodgy to watch but the strength of the defence had us propped up. Now they’ve hit a bad patch the flaws at the other end are quite clear to see.
All true. Could Jorghino be played as a DM - he has good passing ability - and Rice be played more in a box to box role? Personally, I would give Zinchenko a go at left 8 and even try Odegard on the right to give Saka a rest.
Also, to a degree I can understand the players being told not to waste shots as this could invite a counter attack - but this is happening anyway when we give the ball away. The solution must be to progress the ball quicker. Its ironic that Ramsdale has been replaced for a keeper who in my view is not as good at stopping shots but his so-called superior passing ability is wasted as we then become so static in the final third.