Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Even after that they’d still have to spurs, Chelsea, Villa, city away, got to play us again etc.
The fact is if city are like how they were last night, Liverpool beating them would prove nothing
Their December fixtures are tough
If we are nine points behind them come January 1st fine I’ll say it will be difficult to catch them
Five ? Yeah I’d say that’s easily doable given the respective fixtures
Steve Cooper sacked. :lol:
Yeah just saw that, ridiculously harsh (in my view). What exactly are they expecting. They’ve got a 37 year old Vardy leading the line…as well as a few other mediocres and ageing players because they simply don’t have the money to invest (well they do but not without getting done over by financial sustainability rules)Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
Cooper been treated harshly by both Forest and Leicester
I don’t think he’s a top manager but he’s a reasonably decent one.
They'd be 9 points above us at worst, 11 above City. It's just starting to feel a long way back.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I take the point that it's still relatively early and Liverpool have to play some tough games - but City is one of those (well, in normal times - the run they've been on of late is both baffling and hilarious). If they win that one then you'd have to say it's another test past - they've already played us at our place and got a good point. It was during our wobble admittedly but still, they just keep passing these tests.
We both thought Mac had gone mad suggesting they'd be contenders but I don't think either of us would have predicted they'd be where they are right now. Maybe we were wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The reason they are nine points clear is because they’ve had by far the easiest fixtures. The only tough fixture they’ve had was us away. Southampton had to shoot themselves in the foot twice and have a harsh penalty awarded against them for them to win.
The only result that surprised me was them losing at home to Forest. When we’ve seen City lose three in a row (yes they are in a bit of a tail spin) I simply cannot see how anyone can look at a 9 point gap and also look at Liverpool who for me in terms of performance are less impressive than last season and think it’s insurmountable. I did not expect us to be 9 points behind them, because I didn’t expect us to lose to Bournemouth or Newcastle.
We have statistically the easiest run in to the new year, Liverpool one of the hardest. So as I say, we shall see where we are January 1st.
Ipswich equalise through one of our ex academy players
He's just such a miserable sod, I'd be suicidal if he was the manager of my clubQuote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Which is pretty much my position.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
But I don't believe that either of us thought Liverpool would have had a start to the season this good, easy run or not. You keep making excuses for why they keep getting results. You never seem to stop and consider you may have underestimated them.
Wasn’t he the one who left us for Chelsea because he thought he’d get first team football there sooner? It so see it went well for him :unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
If I thought I’d underestimated them I’d have said so. I repeat I don’t think they’ve won any games that I wouldn’t have expected them too. If they don’t fall away when the truly hard games come fair enough, but at the moment them being where they are is a reflection on us and city more than anything. I think we should have beaten them, and at least seven times out of ten we would have done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
They’ve beaten Ipswich, United, Wolves, Palace and Southampton away from home. I really don’t know what there is to add other than that
Yep that’s himQuote:
Originally Posted by dazthegooner
Is he? Not saying he’s not but can’t really say because don’t really watch post match interviewsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I think he has one of those miserable faces, a bit like basset hounds look sad (although in my experience they are the most contented and laid back breed of dogs you could meet)
Well obviously, I just wonder why you haven’t considered that.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Or maybe you have and rejected the notion.
I’m not disputing they’ve had a lot of games they “should” win, but pretty much all sides drop points in those sorts of games here and there. They just haven’t. Yet. They might start to, but I keep thinking that and they just keep winning. Which is starting to make me think I may have misjudged them and we should take them more seriously as contenders.
But I am also on board with the “let’s see where we are at the turn of the year” thesis.
I’ve watched a lot of their games this season and I think in a lot of them, they’ve been lucky.
They haven’t exactly been pummelling other teams, in their last five wins they’ve only won once by a margin of more than one goal. They’ve relied on the award of a penalty for three of those games.
The other thing i will concede that has surprised me is that they’ve only conceded 8 goals, and kept six clean sheets. That surprise is mainly because they aren’t actually that good defensively….they were all over the place against us.
Could it be that this a Leicester City type season where they make the most of all the other teams shooting themselves in the foot? Possibly
Anyway 1-1 full time
Amorim learning that you can’t polish a turd
one game in...Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
meanwhile apparently 12 games isn't enough to say Liverpool are genuine title contenders
It’s been more than one game that has showcased that United have a great many average players, and no matter how innovative a coach is or isn’t….Gold doesn’t come from base metal, and that if Amorim is to succeed there he will need to overhaul the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
And no 12 games isn’t enough when you look at the games they have been played. But if they get through the December minefield and still have their lead mainly intact then yeah I expect we can call them contenders then, and of course it’s possible….many of us were waiting for the other shoe to drop with Leicester City and it didn’t happen.
And should they win the league that should spell the end for Arteta, losing to Man City is one thing….losing to an inferior Liverpool team which is relying heavily on ageing stars like Salah and Van Dijk is another thing
I still am, frankly.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
They got relegated, what more do you want? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by WMUG
You keep saying stuff like this and that they're just being lucky. They've won 10 out of 12 games, the only games they've dropped points in are a baffling loss to Forest and a pretty creditable result against us. Even if most of the others are games they "should" win, most teams drop points here and there in games like that. They can't keep on being lucky, there does seem to be more about this team than I thought. I still think you're clinging on to your pre-season thesis longer than makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
If they end up as champions then they're not inferior, you don't just fluke a title. Although I'd agree that should be the end for Arteta, his job was to make us champions, he's been allowed to invest heavily to get us there. I don't blame him for last season but if it's Liverpool and not us who take advantage if City do have their worst season in years then I agree he should go.Quote:
And should they win the league that should spell the end for Arteta, losing to Man City is one thing….losing to an inferior Liverpool team which is relying heavily on ageing stars like Salah and Van Dijk is another thing
Man Utd
P12 W4 D4 L4 F13 A13
:lol:
I just mean that part of my brain still can't compute the idea of them actually winning the league, even now.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Even though it happened, it still isn't going to happen.
The situation for me is analogous to us two seasons ago, I felt it was too early after 12 games then to call us contenders and guess what we had exactly the same points as Liverpool do now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I’m still of the view that it’s just as likely that they will drop off and be battling for top four within a few months (but that depends as much on us and city as it does them) and I don’t just say that because “well they haven’t played anyone yet” it’s because they genuinely don’t look that good. They in fact looked a hell of a lot better last season at this point despite in terms of points being four points better off now.
It’s not always the case that the team with the best players win the league. Leicester had a tremendous season but it’s fair to say in terms of playing personnel that there were half a dozen teams better than them. With Liverpool this season it’s at least two teams
I really don’t get this need to browbeat on your part, if you go back far enough I even said that Liverpool might look like they were in contention because of how easy their fixtures were. But if we hadn’t dropped ten points in four games, we wouldn’t be having this debate now.
I can’t tell you something that I don’t feel, I don’t feel I’ve underestimated Liverpool….and I genuinely feel other people are jumping the gun out of panic.
December is an absolute ball breaker for them, if they still have the same advantage over us that they have now a month later, they will probably win the thing. If they are four-five points clear they are likely contenders (but with the caveat that I’m confident of overhauling them). Less than four-five points….even with City’s hemorrhaging…they could struggle for top four because…arguably even Chelsea are in the mix
Yes I know what you meant, twas a jokeQuote:
Originally Posted by WMUG
And yes it was a complete inversion of footballing gravity
I think there will be a bit of a course correction once Liverpool have had their really tricky away days however my main worry is that we’ve left ourselves too much to do. We need to win at least 21 of the remaining 26 fixtures to hit 85 points if we’re thinking the bar is lower this season.
So a couple more dud results and I think we’re finished. The run we went on from January last season pretty much has to start a month earlier now.
If we won every game from now till the end of the season that would give us 100 points. And therefore it’s fair to say we do have a little bit of room if as you say we should finish with minimum of 85 pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
That might not be a great analogy though as we were contenders that season and actually favourites until towards the end when we had one of our dodgy patches.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I'm just interested how you seem to be sticking to your guns and don't seem to be re-evaluating your position as they just keep winning. You can't keep on dismissing it as luck.Quote:
I really don’t get this need to browbeat on your part
And I think we would still be having this debate were we closer to them because I don't think either of us expected them to go off like a train like this.
But let's see where we all are at the turn of the year - that is something we agree on.
To make the opposite point, that "dodgy patch" was the part of the season that contained all our hardest fixtures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I made the point before the season even started that if we made top 4 that year, it'd look like we'd bottled a title race.
Now granted we did do better than anybody expected, but we were always in a bit of a false position for most of the campaign for that reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Except I reject your characterisation, they haven’t gone off like a train. If they’d won six or seven games in a row in the league that’s one thing but they haven’t. Their biggest winning streak in the premier league is four games, and City won their first four games, and we are all straining our necks to view a giant car wreck at this moment in time
And I use that because you especially were at pains to tell me how it was City we would struggle catching up to because of their propensity to go into beast mode, and frankly I knew different….i didn’t predict that the calamity would be this spectacular but I could see they were headed for trouble.
Are Liverpool headed for trouble? I don’t know….certainly not in the same way City have been. But I think it’s fair to say when you’re not absolutely tanking your opponents and when decisions have gone for them that clearly haven’t gone for us, it’s fair to say there’s no small amount of luck involved. Even the best teams need a bit of luck so I’m not knocking them for that, but I’m sorry I’m not seeing what you are….they haven’t particularly surprised me because i was aware of what their fixtures were back in June, and I similarly saw City winning easy games even after they lost Rodri - Beating Fulham, Wolves and Southampton.
Them being nine points clear of us is far more reflective of the fact that we didn’t win a single game in four. The last time that happened was when the wheels fell of our title challenge in 2023. You be surprised if you want to, I keep telling you I’m not nor am I particularly impressed.
I’ll be impressed if they beat Newcastle, Everton, Spurs and West Ham away or even get eight points from those fixtures in December. Or if they lose Salah and Van Dijk and they don’t utterly implode.
I really don’t know what else to tell you, I’ve done my level best to fill in the gaps for you. There’s nothing I can say to you that will change your mind that I’m not just being stubborn.
I remember at the time I was concerned about the tough run in. A mate said to me "everyone has to play everyone twice". Which is obviously true, but they don't all play them in the same order and that can have an effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by WMUG
To be honest apart from Spurs away I would expect them to win most of their December fixtures. Barcodes away is obviously tough on paper but it’s also an opponent Liverpool have got the better of for years. I don’t remember the last time Newcastle beat them that’s for sure and I think there’s been very few draws in that time too. As for Neverton, well they’re absolutely shit and that derby has been a joke for years. I’d wager the game at Goodison last season was an outlier more than anything.
Let’s see anyway, I don’t anticipate much of a drop off from them at least until new year. It’s more us I’m bothered with, we need to win and keep winning to keep the gap respectable at the very least.
I think previous form goes out the window. These records were Klopp’s achievements. And whilst I’m not knocking the bald Dutchman because he did inherit this team and they’ve lost a lot of their top players and replaced them with players that aren’t as good…..this Liverpool side is no where near as formidable as the Klopp team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Liverpool could for sure do well in these fixtures, but they’d have to show a solidity and guile that hitherto I’ve not really seen. Spurs are all over the place but at their best they could absolutely destroy that Liverpool defence. Everton are shit but we’ve found derby days tough even when Spurs were flirting with relegation….going to Goodison park is never easy and Liverpool have won twice there in the last ten league encounters. West Ham can be a bit of a strange fixture for Liverpool
The point is though these fixtures are far tougher than anything they’ve previously had to deal with away from home. We could barely beat war torn Shaktah when we played Liverpool otherwise we’d have torn them to shreds, other than that who have they beaten away from home? United ? :lol: United is everyone’s bitch currently
We do need to win most if not all the games in that run, but these are games we should be winning. West Ham (a), United (h), Fulham (a), Everton (h), Palace (a), Ipswich (h).
Frankly if we aren’t getting as near to 18 points as possible, we have no business challenging to begin with and that’s got nothing to do with what Liverpool are or are not doing
31 points out of 36 :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
You didn't "know" anything :lol:Quote:
And I use that because you especially were at pains to tell me how it was City we would struggle catching up to because of their propensity to go into beast mode, and frankly I knew different….i didn’t predict that the calamity would be this spectacular but I could see they were headed for trouble.
Behave yourself. You make wrong predictions all the time about football, as do I, as do we all. Don't pat yourself on the back too hard for your foresight when you get one right.
I famously don't watch much football so I'm not really seeing anything, but you can't argue with their results. I don't buy it's just dumb luck by now. That said, I do accept their fixtures have been kind so far which does put them in a bit of a false position. But while you may have seen a fixture like Southampton vs Liverpool and expect Liverpool to win it, you expect teams to drop points here and there in games they "should" win, and they just haven't so far. And the fact they got a point at our place tells me there's something about them. I am starting to take the more seriously. But anyway, as we keep saying, let's see where we all are at the turn of the year.Quote:
I’m sorry I’m not seeing what you are
This is certainly true - I was a little alarmed to note we've only won half our games so far, not ideal for a side with title pretentions.Quote:
Them being nine points clear of us is far more reflective of the fact that we didn’t win a single game in four.
I don’t know the Sun will come up tomorrow, experience tells me that more likely than not it will. Foreknowledge of any kind is an exercise in finite probability. If you see smoke rising from a dumpster, it’s possible there’s another explanation but 999 times out of a 1000 you’ve got yourself a bin fire.
I’m not patting myself on the back, I’m doing the opposite I’m saying City’s travails were rather all too easy to foresee.
I don’t know that Liverpool will come off the rails, and of course it’s certainly in my interest that they do so. But I don’t look at them and think “where are they going to drop points?”. I thought yesterday was conceivable that they’d drop points….not because I think Southampton are anything but terrible but as you’ve pointed out yourself there’s a difference between a fixture you should win on paper and how it plays out.
That’s why I’m still waiting for the other shoe to drop. Because the performances have been average. Honestly If you were to go away and watch Liverpool’s matches (not even all of them, just say the last four or five) don’t have to watch beginning to end…Match of the Day highlights will suffice and you come back and tell me this is a team that looks like likely league winners, who haven’t massively relied on luck….then I would actually take your view more seriously than I do now
Agreed, the trouble is I’ve seen some vulnerabilities in us that weren’t there last season, so I’m unsure if we will get those 18 points or at least 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
See this is where I’m in disagreement with both yourself and a lot of others, in that I’ve not seen vulnerabilities that weren’t there last season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
The first three games of last season were a complete and utter shit fest, up until January there had only been three away games in ten where we’d scored more than one goal. December of last year was a complete and utter car crash (lost three league games in one month)
Apart from one being at lunchtime, and one being in the evening there was almost no difference in the Newcastle away fixture for example. Absolutely toothless in both.
The Chelsea fixture? I think people don’t realise just how bad we were in the game in 2023 despite coming from two nil down
We won six games from 12 in the period from mid October until the end of the year (just like we have in 12 games now) we conceded 14 goals and scored the same amount of goals we scored in our first 12 games this time around - 21
Indeed. But this is why I'm raising an eyebrow at you continuing to call their performances average. Average performances yield average results...on average.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Of course there will be times you play poorly and win, or play well and lose. That's football. But if you keep putting in average performances then you're not going to keep on winning and they just...do. Easy fixtures or no, I can't believe it can be entirely luck. There does seem to be something about them this season. Whether they'll maintain this...it seems unlikely, but I keep thinking that. Hopefully December will see them drop enough points and we can go on a run and haul them in a bit.
You use the word "average" a lot by the way - elsewhere you chastised someone else for using it because average compared with what?
Our defence doesn't feel as solid, I think that's the main thing for me. Last season we shut up shop and saw games out, this year we're struggling to keep clean sheets.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn