Fulham vs Arsenal - 08/12/2024 - KO: 14:00 GMT

I think its unfair to take the view that Arteta should have achieved sucees in 3 years. He inherited a basket case of a club and needed to re-establish a team drifting below the CL places and beset by a lack of cohesion; strategy and mentality - the complete opposite of what Slot walked into at Liverpool.

But this should have been our year. 2 second places - the last season an improvement on the one before and a near perfect 2024, beaten to the title by a monster of a team by only 2 points.

Instead, in a season where Citeh are stuttering; having spent over £700m on players since he arrived, and being given huge latitude to build a team that can complete the 5th stage of the project, its obvious that Arsenal is regressing rather than pushing on.

I am not being knee jerk here, and I am not saying that Arteta has 'failed' or playing down what he has undoubtedly achieved, but (like HCZ says) simply acknowledging the evidence that suggests that Arteta has reached his ceiling. He has built a team that relies too much on the first 12/13 being fit and on form - while signing players with lamentable fitness records; is based on too often sterile possession; requires perfection to execute a game plan effectively (and is vulnerable to counter attcking when this doesn't happen as is inevitably the case); has neglected its attack and does not get the best out of key players.

This is all relative of course - we are 3rd in the league. But by his own objectives, the manager is falling short and our lack of cutting edge when faced with stubborn opponents is a strand that has run through the whole of his tenure.

Perhaps yesterday's game - more than any other this season, encapsulates our 'close but no cigar' character - and I have to say that I no longer really trust Arteta to buy the players we need.

Can I add that for different reasons the Jesus signing has been an abject failure as has Sterling. Both need to be exited ASAP.

Sterling doesn’t bother me because I think we knew what we were getting with him but Jesus, what a waste of 50m he has turned out to be. You can’t carry passengers like that if you’re trying to win a title. He’s senior player with bags of top level experience and medals to his name but you’d never know it. No striker of any substance goes on a barren spell like he has. Just one goal to his name since February, which was against Preston. Fucking dire.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

No striker of any substance goes on a barren spell like he has. Just one goal to his name since February, which was against Preston.

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:lol:

Wow.

I've been a bit of an apologist for him because I've always felt that while he's not prolific, he adds something to us going forward.
But that's bloody awful :lol:

The thing is he was never prolific at Man City either, it felt to me that signing him was signalling that we don’t go in for the traditional centre forward. I think we have been more than patient with him and it’s time the club started leaving travel brochures for Saudi Arabia around the training ground

My issue with him is that he doen;t even look like he is busting a gut trying to change things any more. 1 completed pass of just 6 yesterday, and those are his only stats from 20 mins of play. Total Lacazette at the end vibes for me.

Sterling cannot even make it off the bench at the end of a game where we need a goal. I know we wondered whether his lack of tracking back had made Arteta anti him, but tracking back was not needed after 80 mins in this game.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

The thing is he was never prolific at Man City either, it felt to me that signing him was signalling that we don’t go in for the traditional centre forward. I think we have been more than patient with him and it’s time the club started leaving travel brochures for Saudi Arabia around the training ground

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:lol:

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Originally Posted by IBK

My issue with him is that he doen;t even look like he is busting a gut trying to change things any more. 1 completed pass of just 6 yesterday, and those are his only stats from 20 mins of play. Total Lacazette at the end vibes for me.

Sterling cannot even make it off the bench at the end of a game where we need a goal. I know we wondered whether his lack of tracking back had made Arteta anti him, but tracking back was not needed after 80 mins in this game.

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Sterling is a player who relied on pace, when you’re quick and technically good you don’t need to be strong as long as you’re short as the low centre of gravity helps you. Sterling’s pace has gone, it’s far far too easy to muscle him off the ball.

He’d be better off whittling down his career in a less physical league

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Originally Posted by IBK

Can I add that for different reasons the Jesus signing has been an abject failure as has Sterling. Both need to be exited ASAP.

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Jesus was excellent when he first came to the club, that great start to the season two years ago simply wouldn't have happened without him

but the injury he got at the World Cup seemed to affect him from then on and he's since regressed into a player who not only can't score but doesn't do much else of use either

A real shame but the point is, he is no longer the player we bought, it doesn't make it a bad signing

Zin on the other hand - I genuinely believe we would have won the title last year without him in the side

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Jesus was excellent when he first came to the club, that great start to the season two years ago simply wouldn't have happened without him

but the injury he got at the World Cup seemed to affect him from then on and he's since regressed into a player who not only can't score but doesn't do much else of use either

A real shame but the point is, he is no longer the player we bought, it doesn't make it a bad signing

Zin on the other hand - I genuinely believe we would have won the title last year without him in the side

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I have to say the whole Zinchenko thing is one of the biggest examples of a post hoc fallacy I can think of…unless you’re saying he was responsible for us losing to Villa at home as well (and whilst his casual meandering certainly didn’t help, that was a game we needed to win, not just not lose and we created shit). But if you want to attribute the dropped two points in August to us not winning the title, there’s a far more explicit culprit and that’s Arteta. The guy who dicked around with the lineup so we looked second best to Fulham for two thirds of that home game.

And Jesus was missing chances, right, left and centre even before he got injured at the World Cup. Yes his work rate was good but it was Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli creating space for him. I think apart from the fact that Arteta insists on playing him centrally which doesn’t work, he’s a lazy shit. Often just won’t make runs or make himself available for passing

For me you can tell the difference between a player who has lost something as a result of injury and a player who isn’t trying. Eduardo fell into the former category, I always think if you suffer an injury shocker like that it can stay in the back of your mind and it affects your reactions and instincts.

You’ve got to be prepared to do the leg work in the premier league even if things are not going for you. Trossard has been having a stinker at times this season, but what I will say for him is that the effort is always there

Apart from anything else, assume for a second Zinchenko doesn’t come on as a sub in the Fulham game. And then suppose further that we don’t end up drawing from some foul up anyway. Why then assume that the rest of the season would unfold the way it did, perhaps Rodri doesn’t get sent off against Nottingham Forest and then he’s available for the game at Wolves away and Arsenal away (where City lose both games). He’s not injured when they play Aston Villa and they don’t lose that game either. Now of course it’s not to say that they wouldn’t have lost those games if Rodri was playing, but I don’t think it’s just a coincidence that City haven’t lost a league game he’s played in for almost two years.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I have to say the whole Zinchenko thing is one of the biggest examples of a post hoc fallacy I can think of…unless you’re saying he was responsible for us losing to Villa at home as well (and whilst his casual meandering certainly didn’t help, that was a game we needed to win, not just not lose and we created shit). But if you want to attribute the dropped two points in August to us not winning the title, there’s a far more explicit culprit and that’s Arteta. The guy who dicked around with the lineup so we looked second best to Fulham for two thirds of that home game.

And Jesus was missing chances, right, left and centre even before he got injured at the World Cup. Yes his work rate was good but it was Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli creating space for him. I think apart from the fact that Arteta insists on playing him centrally which doesn’t work, he’s a lazy shit. Often just won’t make runs or make himself available for passing

For me you can tell the difference between a player who has lost something as a result of injury and a player who isn’t trying. Eduardo fell into the former category, I always think if you suffer an injury shocker like that it can stay in the back of your mind and it affects your reactions and instincts.

You’ve got to be prepared to do the leg work in the premier league even if things are not going for you. Trossard has been having a stinker at times this season, but what I will say for him is that the effort is always there

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I'm with you on both these points. Jesus came to the club as our star striker, on commensurate wages of £265,000 per week (second highest at the club). His first dozen games were a revelation, but even in his first season he scored only 11 EPL goals and had 6 assists, with a goal per game ratio of 0.42. He was well behind Odegard and Martinelli (15 goals) and Saka (14), and joint 14th in the EPL. That is of itself a failure - at least well short of what could reasonably have been expected of him.

Since 2022/23 - well last season Jesus scored only 4 EPL goals (5 assists), with a GPG ratio of a pathetic 0.15, and he has not scored since January.

Overall, Jesus has indeed been a disaster. And you are spot on that his lack of effort/bravery/mental strength whatever is simply unacceptable for a player earning almost £14M per year.

I agree also with you re Zinchenko. Gooners seem always to need a scapegoat and Zin has been that guy for a while now. I think that the opprobrium heaped on him for being a liability is unfair. He has played only 2 fewer games than Calafiori this season, and the latter player has made at least 3 key defensive errors from my recollection - more than Zinchenko. But as he is the shiny new toy, Cala gets a pass from fans. Further, Zinchenko was never first and foremost a defender - he was essentially used as inverted LB - with a view to progressing teh ball through MF. Zin has not been a disaster by any means in terms of his performances. Where he is more suspect is in his injury record/unavailability - also the fact that after 60/70 mins he drops off in games. But unlike Jesus, his effort and application are not in doubt, for me.

Zinchenko is pretty shit tbh.

He cannot defend for toffee and his midfield contributions are few and far between.

I don't know how people cannot see it.

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Zinchenko is pretty shit tbh.

He cannot defend for toffee and his midfield contributions are few and far between.

I don't know how people cannot see it.

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No fan of his at all, he’s been on my “to get rid of” list for some considerable time, I just think it’s equally a bit silly to single him out as the player who cost us the title last season due to an error he made in a game back at the beginning of the season. He didn’t play much that season, partly due to injury and partly because it was clear that Arteta didn’t trust him. What I will say though is that i prefer him at left back to Kiwior or Timber (Timber is a very good player, it’s just clear he’s a right back) because for all his defensive shortcomings i do think we do manage more attacking play on the left when he does.

My preference would be for him to go along with Tomiyasu and blood this Lewis Skelley lad as backup to Calafiori. And keep Kiwior as a centre back.

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Zinchenko is pretty shit tbh.

He cannot defend for toffee and his midfield contributions are few and far between.

I don't know how people cannot see it.

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This

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I have to say the whole Zinchenko thing is one of the biggest examples of a post hoc fallacy I can think of…unless you’re saying he was responsible for us losing to Villa at home as well (and whilst his casual meandering certainly didn’t help, that was a game we needed to win, not just not lose and we created shit). But if you want to attribute the dropped two points in August to us not winning the title, there’s a far more explicit culprit and that’s Arteta. The guy who dicked around with the lineup so we looked second best to Fulham for two thirds of that home game.

And Jesus was missing chances, right, left and centre even before he got injured at the World Cup. Yes his work rate was good but it was Saka, Odegaard and Martinelli creating space for him. I think apart from the fact that Arteta insists on playing him centrally which doesn’t work, he’s a lazy shit. Often just won’t make runs or make himself available for passing

For me you can tell the difference between a player who has lost something as a result of injury and a player who isn’t trying. Eduardo fell into the former category, I always think if you suffer an injury shocker like that it can stay in the back of your mind and it affects your reactions and instincts.

You’ve got to be prepared to do the leg work in the premier league even if things are not going for you. Trossard has been having a stinker at times this season, but what I will say for him is that the effort is always there

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Application only gets you so far, a half-trying Messi would still do better than a fully-trying Championship midfielder

As for Zin, the reason he was a fail is actually tied up with the whole inverted LB thing which you regularly call out as BSZin would be fine playing in MF for Palace but he's not Arsenal level. And he cannot defend which is a huge weakness for someone in a defensive role...

So it's both the player and the tactic whoch is a fail, Pep made a laughing stock of it in last season's game (or was it the one before?) at Citeh when he simply got them to play over our midfield and bypass Zin altogether

As for Jesus, you're forgetting he missed quite a bit of that first season and wasn't the same even when he came back

It's only this season he's seemed to lack determination and should have been sold in the summer but that takes us back to the whole we-need-a-striker argument where I think we all agree we've been left weak up front

Application indeed only gets you so far, the point being is not to suggest Jesus would be doing better if he was working harder (although he couldn’t be doing any worse) but there’s only so much patience people will have for you if your form stinks and your attitude stinks and with Jesus it’s both

Yep Jesus was injured but that season was attenuated by the World Cup, and he was fit for the first 14 games of the season prior to the World Cup. And the effort was there, the finesse not so much….we gave him a bit of leeway because he was creating panic in the box for opposition defences, but there was a running joke on here about how many chances he missed and it was hard to know sometimes whether that then led to him laying on chances for others because he was fluffing the chances himself.

Even before he got injured, he’d gone six league games without a goal

As for Zinchenko, as I keep saying I don’t think he’s good enough. He’s careless in possession, he’s slow and he’s got that infuriating tendency to wave his arms around in an unofficial leadership role where in my mind true leaders lead by example. I don’t think it’s unfair to sum him up in totality as a failed signing, but again there’s degrees….id rather him not play than play but I don’t think he’s singularly the difference between success and failure in most games.

I rate Calafiori highly so there’s no doubt in my mind he should be first choice left back and Zinchenko sold. But as I said during the summer, selling a player relies on there being takers

2 points thrown down the drain. Any other analysis is an excuse. Should easily be beating dogshit like Fulham. Didn't. Suggests we are still more dogshit than caviar.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

2 points thrown down the drain. Any other analysis is an excuse. Should easily be beating dogshit like Fulham. Didn't. Suggests we are still more dogshit than caviar.

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Can’t really argue with that