Match Reaction - Arsenal 1-2 Watford - Wenger Out

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Originally Posted by Letters

Seriously? You're picking someone else up for only caring about trophies (not that I think HCZ is like that).
You couldn't have made it clearer on here that that's all you care about although now you're so bitter about Wenger you'd rather we don't win them.
:rolleyes:

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The primary concern of a supporter of a football club is to desire that your team has glory - silverware

It takes precedence in most respects but there are exceptions, if I thought Usmanov was the only guarantee of major silverware I still wouldn't want him owning the club because some things come at too high a price.

I don't say this as someone with any love of Stan Kroenke, I think the guys a total arsehole and represents the worst element of sport as a business.

I despise David Dein for bringing both Kroenke and Usmanov anywhere near the club.

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

The primary concern of a supporter of a football club is to desire that your team has glory - silverware

It takes precedence in most respects but there are exceptions, if I thought Usmanov was the only guarantee of major silverware I still wouldn't want him owning the club because some things come at too high a price.

I don't say this as someone with any love of Stan Kroenke, I think the guys a total arsehole and represents the worst element of sport as a business.

I despise David Dein for bringing both Kroenke and Usmanov anywhere near the club.

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Exactly. That's your threshold. I'm not comparing Wenger to Usmanov or Stan...closer to home would be another manager. Say it was Mourinho in charge and you couldn't stand the guy to the point you're losing interest in watching us play?

I've heard a few people say they would stop supporting us if Mourinho came on board even if he won us trophies so it's really not as clear cut as you make it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Seriously? You're picking someone else up for only caring about trophies (not that I think HCZ is like that).
You couldn't have made it clearer on here that that's all you care about although now you're so bitter about Wenger you'd rather we don't win them.
:rolleyes:

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Really, I think I made it clear that winning is important but that basically the way Wenger doesn't things isn't condusive to this and that I would feel differently if he was doing the best he could do, which he clearly doesn't.

Obviously I want my club to win (who wouldn't), but I've stated numerous times I wanted to see obvious progress and signs that the manager understands what that is.

I believe I've also stated Wenger kills any hope, because everything is so predictable, having a manager who can upset the odds and potentially achieve something would be far more rewarding even if we don't all the time.

Your take is that we have been progressing and you've made all the excuses on the sun (much like Wenger) and look where we are now over 10 years on, nowhere and going backwards, had we got rid a while back we'd be far far better off in all likelyness and might actually enjoy unpredtictable seasons.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.

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Once is a fuck up, twice indicates something more sinister.

He introduced Kroenke hoping to sell out to him but Kroenke played the long game at first, taking up the ITV shares. Then Usmanov chubbed along with £75m and that was that.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.

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Desperate measures. I still wonder what part Dein plays at the club. He's not on the Board obviously but he still comes to games and I can't imagine he's been cut off from Wenger. They must still talk and exchange ideas, right?

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Dein was a hugely influential figure for us but he cocked up massively with those 2 bloodsuckers. Nothing wrong with seeking outside investment but he probably should have done more homework.

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I have a certain amount of sympathy with Dein and the rest of the board for looking at outside 'investment' initially at the time when Kroenke was brought on board. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and its easy to see the mistakes that were made now. But at the time, I think that Dein was mostly naive and too hasty. Let's remember that he originally introduced Kroenke to the club, and only later sold his shares to Usmanov when he fell out with the rest of the board. Dein clearly felt that the original intention of becoming self-sustaining was in danger of being hijacked with the increasing trend of billionaire owners. Whether his play for Usmanov was because, too late, he saw that Kroenke was not going to invest in the club via the playing side maybe a matter of record (although I haven't looked), but what is for sure is that the Kroenke/Usmanov situation has arisen as the result of a divided board - the rest of whom backed Kroenke mostly as a result of the dispute with Dein. It seems to me that in doing this, they shackled us with an owner with a business model that did not include footballing success.

What I believe in hindsight, however, is that Dein was ambitious for the club, and despite his cock up I judge him less harshly than the others who by the time push came to shove should have seen Kroenke's modus operandi, and yet have left us with the absurd situation where together our owners trump everyone but Citeh in terms of wealth, yet will not invest a penny to try to lead us to significant silverware.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Exactly. That's your threshold. I'm not comparing Wenger to Usmanov or Stan...closer to home would be another manager. Say it was Mourinho in charge and you couldn't stand the guy to the point you're losing interest in watching us play?

I've heard a few people say they would stop supporting us if Mourinho came on board even if he won us trophies so it's really not as clear cut as you make it.

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It's clear cut to me, I loathe Mourinho, all his personality traits point to clinical narcaccism a malady that effects Donald Trump....it's a serious personallty disorder.

But yes even with that vile midget in charge id still want us to win games.

What Mourinho isn't however is a criminal human rights abuser, unless he's done a good job of covering his tracks he hasn't raped a girl either and used money to have the case thrown out.....the same cannot be said of Alisher Usmanov.

I would in that instance question whether I could personally continue to support the club, and in that respect I would no longer consider myself a fan.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

No a plastic fan is someone who only supports a team because that team is winning and will abandon them as soon as they don't win.

If you're not gutted it means you don't care, no one is arguing it's not predictable but as I've said whilst we have no leverage over who the manager is the only recourse is to hope for the best.

You ultimately fail to understand that distinction, it's not deluded belief that things will change its having no alternative but to hope it will change. Because to not support and want the team to win every game regardless of whether you think they can win is the only option available to someone who supports a football club.

The only issue I have in regards to wanting Kroenke out is that the alternative is Usmanov.

Saying you're looking at the bigger picture changes nothing, if you don't want the team to win you are not a fan. To try and dress it up like you're a gritty realist doesn't wash with me, if you are not emotionally invested in this club even if you despise the manager than I don't see why you're a fan.

It really is that simple, for future reference I believe the nearest tube station to Stamford bridge is Fulham Broadway.

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You want to believe there's no alternative, that's nonsense of course there is it's just that you've been brainwashed into thinking there isn't because that's what the club wants you to think.

IMO to want this man to stay on at the club is not being a supporter at all, he's bad for the club as he's proven over a decade, he's turned us into also rans, Europe's biggest joke and in turn instead of putting football first he prioritises finances, what kinda of football man does this and what kind of football fan supports this?

Like I said your a shortermist, short term imaginary success is what you aspire to see, because there is not going to be any short term real success if you've been watching what's happened in the last 10 years and have any common sense, the only way you're going to see success on the pitch is if we see change and that includes that changing the man you feel you are indifferent about. 10 years of the same thing and you still believe things will change, that is deluded I'm afraid, any way you look at it, there is no hope it's just lies and a delusional belief we can succeed.

If like me you realise that we have no hope of winning, you're not surprised or disappointed when it happens, indeed you realise change is the only thing that can change this losing cycle, not some phantom belief that things that have never changed in the last 10 years will change.

I guess seeing as you believe there's hope we can succeed, do you also believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy?

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Originally Posted by IBK

I have a certain amount of sympathy with Dein and the rest of the board for looking at outside 'investment' initially at the time when Kroenke was brought on board. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and its easy to see the mistakes that were made now. But at the time, I think that Dein was mostly naive and too hasty. Let's remember that he originally introduced Kroenke to the club, and only later sold his shares to Usmanov when he fell out with the rest of the board. Dein clearly felt that the original intention of becoming self-sustaining was in danger of being hijacked with the increasing trend of billionaire owners. Whether his play for Usmanov was because, too late, he saw that Kroenke was not going to invest in the club via the playing side maybe a matter of record (although I haven't looked), but what is for sure is that the Kroenke/Usmanov situation has arisen as the result of a divided board - the rest of whom backed Kroenke mostly as a result of the dispute with Dein. It seems to me that in doing this, they shackled us with an owner with a business model that did not include footballing success.

What I believe in hindsight, however, is that Dein was ambitious for the club, and despite his cock up I judge him less harshly than the others who by the time push came to shove should have seen Kroenke's modus operandi, and yet have left us with the absurd situation where together our owners trump everyone but Citeh in terms of wealth, yet will not invest a penny to try to lead us to significant silverware.

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Totally agree, Dein loved Arsenal and was ambitious and wanted to make us compete with the best in the world, he was thrown and and this is what happened.

Getting rid of Dein was a big mistake, I largely agree he might have been hasty but utlimately he looked ahead and realised having a rick owner would be the norm.