Summer Transfer Misery 2017/18

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

You need to start thinking ahead. You’re dismissive today but as the season unravels, it will suddenly dawn on you. We’re not in good shape at all. The fact that we’re owned by Silent Stan and Wenger was just given a new contract says it all. We’re fucked.

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And yet, despite all you've said (some of which I agree with), in the last 4 seasons we've finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 5th and in 3 of those seasons we've won a trophy.
You're talking in very vague terms "bad shape", "we're fucked". What do you think that means in practise?
For years people have been doom-mongering about Arsenal, saying we'd slip into mid-table. We never have. Last season was our worst placed finish under Wenger and we still ended with a trophy.
With a better manager we would be up there challenging in my opinion.

The worst I see is that under Wenger we won't push on and be challenging for titles and if and when we get a better manager we are pretty well placed to do so. Losing Ozil and Sanchez would of course weaken us, losing RvP weakened us, but we didn't suddenly crash in to mid-table. Say what you like about Wenger, he's always kept us there or thereabouts and I think the squad this year is good enough to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

Chelsea, City, etc don’t have to depend on youth because they go out and buy what they require for whatever price as it’s needed. We don’t and that’s the point. Teams either develop their youth and throw in some unknown cheap gems to win titles or they go all out and buy the top players for the position they need. We do neither.

We’ve needed a striker since RVP left. From the day we signed Ozil, for anyone that has argued that we’d get more out of him if we had a better striker, it’s taken up to the last year of Ozil’s contract for us to sign the type of striker he’d arguably flourish with. That’s way too long to address a problem.

As said, we’re so slow to react, we end up losing the players we’re building a team around because we’re too slow to build around them. We don’t have a team good enough to win the title. You need to watch more of our games. We’ve needed a striker for a long time but we’ve needed a world class CM for much longer. Our defence is in bad shape as well with no leadership. That’s as it stands now.

If we lose Ozil, Sanchez and Ox with no replacements, we’re weakened. If we keep them, I can’t see a scenario where Wenger doesn’t decide to bench them or they take the piss and pull sickies. We’ve seen how Wenger has benched contract rebels before to probe a point and I’m sure we’ll see it again. You need to start thinking ahead. You’re dismissive today but as the season unravels, it will suddenly dawn on you. We’re not in good shape at all. The fact that we’re owned by Silent Stan and Wenger was just given a new contract says it all. We’re fucked.

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:gp:

This season for me is already a write off.

Wenger can't and won't fix these issues.

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Originally Posted by Letters

We have a squad good enough to challenge for the title (in my opinion) and the stadium and global fanbase to sustain that, it's not that bad.

We have a manager who can't win us the biggest trophies and a board who don't care though, so that is not good, and there's no prospect of that changing any time soon.

Are Chelsea, Liverpool, City or Utd teams full of players from their youth systems? I don't know the answer to that but the amount clubs are throwing around to buy in players I'm guessing not.
Obviously it is desirable to develop players rather than buy them if possible though.

We are stagnating, that's the worst thing for me. But I don't think as a club we are in a bad position were a new manager to come in. We already have a squad good enough to challenge, or very close. We will probably lose Sanzhez in the next year or so but losing key players has happened before and we have rebuilt.

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You have been saying this for about 5 years now. The quality of our squad means nothing if we don't have a manager who is good enough utilise it. This has gone much further than a Wenger out debate for me, it's now about damage limitation. It's about ensuring Wenger does the least amount of damage in his final? 2 years left at the club.

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Originally Posted by Letters

And yet, despite all you've said (some of which I agree with), in the last 4 seasons we've finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd and 5th and in 3 of those seasons we've won a trophy.
You're talking in very vague terms "bad shape", "we're fucked". What do you think that means in practise?
For years people have been doom-mongering about Arsenal, saying we'd slip into mid-table. We never have. Last season was our worst placed finish under Wenger and we still ended with a trophy.
With a better manager we would be up there challenging in my opinion.

The worst I see is that under Wenger we won't push on and be challenging for titles and if and when we get a better manager we are pretty well placed to do so. Losing Ozil and Sanchez would of course weaken us, losing RvP weakened us, but we didn't suddenly crash in to mid-table. Say what you like about Wenger, he's always kept us there or thereabouts and I think the squad this year is good enough to do the same.

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What do you think it means?

You don’t even watch the football and have given up your season ticket. You’re not alone. The majority of posters on GW aren’t watching as much as they used to and have even stopped posting. That extends beyond GW and I find the same sentiment echoed all over the place amongst Gooners. The fans are losing interest. That’s’ the bigger picture and goes beyond winning any title or trophy.

You can’t be this stupid. I can only assume you’re trying to give GW some much needed CPR by dragging out this conversation but let the sight die with some dignity. :lol: :rose:

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...You’re dismissive today but as the season unravels, it will suddenly dawn on you.

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Until the season after, when it all starts again. Groundhog Day. Everything repeats and in the end you are guaranteed to get fucked.

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Originally Posted by selassie

You have been saying this for about 5 years now. The quality of our squad means nothing if we don't have a manager who is good enough utilise it.

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I don't entirely agree. The quality of the squad is a factor in how we are doing as a club which is what we are discussing.
I hoped that Wenger would deliver one last title, we all hoped that, surely? It's increasingly clear he won't and I wish he'd gone out on the relative high of having won the FA Cup.
But I can't agree that as a club we're in bad shape. I think our squad is good enough to challenge - we need a better manager but I don't think we're far off, squad-wise.
We have the money and global fanbase to sustain that.
We have a manager who can't deliver the biggest trophies and a board who don't care so long as the money keeps rolling in, so that's not so good.
I think if a new manager came in tomorrow we would challenge for the title (well, depending on who that is) so I don't think right now we're in that bad shape.
Where we'll be in 2 years time remains to be seen, if Wenger goes then what shape will we be in then? We can't know that but there is no clear downward spiral, we're just stagnating as we have done for years.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

What do you think it means?

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If I knew what you meant by that then I wouldn't be asking. Stop avoiding the question. You said it, I'm asking you what you mean.
What do you think will happen at the club in the next 5 or 10 years that justifies you saying we are "fucked"?
Stop using the lazy tactic of calling the other person stupid.

There is an increasing amount of apathy on here but this board is not representative of the fanbase at large. Are the fans losing interest? It's easier to get tickets than it used to be but the stadium isn't half full each week, is it?
I think there's a long way to go before we see that.

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Originally Posted by Letters

If I knew what you meant by that then I wouldn't be asking. Stop avoiding the question. You said it, I'm asking you what you mean.
What do you think will happen at the club in the next 5 or 10 years that justifies you saying we are "fucked"?
Stop using the lazy tactic of calling the other person stupid.

There is an increasing amount of apathy on here but this board is not representative of the fanbase at large. Are the fans losing interest? It's easier to get tickets than it used to be but the stadium isn't half full each week, is it?
I think there's a long way to go before we see that.

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I swear you have a reading problem. Did this not register?

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You don’t even watch the football and have given up your season ticket. You’re not alone. The majority of posters on GW aren’t watching as much as they used to and have even stopped posting. That extends beyond GW and I find the same sentiment echoed all over the place amongst Gooners. The fans are losing interest. That’s’ the bigger picture and goes beyond winning any title or trophy.

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Even in your own post.....

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We have a manager who can't deliver the biggest trophies and a board who don't care so long as the money keeps rolling in, so that's not so good.

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Does that not spell out why we’re fucked overall? I’m not even sure we have an owner that only cares about money, definitely not short term gains because if he were he’d have sacked Wenger the day we dropped out of the top 4 and when he looked over the contract debacle we have on our hands. Even today, common sense should tell him to make sure Sanchez and Ozil sign new contracts for whatever they want in order to attached a ridiculous buyout clause that will still attract bidders.

In terms of the stadium and having our finances in order, we’re in good shape. But do you give a fuck about that? Should you? Also, with the crazy fees being waved around this year for players, we have no idea what it will cost to replace the dross we’ll be left with in two years times. £45m for Sigurðsson for goodness sakes! What’s the market going to be like in 2 years’ time? Who’s to say this is Wenger’s last contract as well? By the time he leaves, we may have to drastically change our transfer strategy just as we had to when Chelsea and Abramovich arrived in 2003. Prices going through the roof fucked us back then and we weren’t prepared for it and it doesn’t look like we’re prepared for when Wenger has to leave.

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Asked for an update on Sanchez's contract situation ahead of Saturday's Premier League trip to Stoke City, he said: 'We have not progressed on that front.
'At the moment he is a player that goes into the final year of his contract and we make no progress on that front.
'It is a consequence of what I say unfortunately but we have to make a choice between efficiency on the field and financial interest.
'In this case, I prioritise the sporting side.'

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COCK!

If you want Alexis to stay then spend the fucking money that's rolling in from the TV contracts. Stop fucking about with lowball bids. You haven't gone head to head with any of your rivals in the transfer market and won. Ever. Cheapskate!

Alexi wants to go because this club shows zero ambition. Why is he going to sign a new contract when the same old shit is being repeated again? Lemar was there to sign. You fucked it up. That would have shown the ambition required to persuade a player like Alexis to stay. But you fucked it up AGAIN. As usual. A 50 mill bid a month ago and Lemar would be in an Arsenal shirt today.

But we know what you really think about this whole transfer business. You'd prefer it if the transfer window never opened.

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'I think for the regularity of the season it is better. As well for psychological comfort of the manager and the focus, it is better to start the season with everyone on the train and we stay on the train.

'You spend your whole summer on the transfer market, we had 10 weeks. People will adapt. When there are just 3-4 days to go, everyone comes out of the bushes, says we are alive, we are here and we want to buy.'

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COCK!

WTF are you on about? Make some sense. Stop talking shit. DO YOUR JOB!

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

I swear you have a reading problem. Did this not register?

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I actually responded to that :lol:, so I don't think it's me who has the reading problem.

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Does that not spell out why we’re fucked overall?

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Well, those things are of concern and it's why we're not as competitive as we should be given our squad. But contrary to some people's opinions I don't see us in a terminal decline. We are stagnating and have done so for years.
I care about our finances only in as much as it's important in the modern game.
We are treading water while Wenger remains with us but were he to leave now I don't think we'd be in bad shape for the new manager. Whether we will be in 2 years remains to be seen but past performance indicates we are unlikely to terminally decline under him so I'm not sure there's reason to believe that we'll be in a worse (or better) stage when he does leave. Possible that we will start to decline under him but we haven't yet despite people's predictions that we'd be in mid-table by now.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I actually responded to that :lol:, so I don't think it's me who has the reading problem.



Well, those things are of concern and it's why we're not as competitive as we should be given our squad. But contrary to some people's opinions I don't see us in a terminal decline. We are stagnating and have done so for years.
I care about our finances only in as much as it's important in the modern game.
We are treading water while Wenger remains with us but were he to leave now I don't think we'd be in bad shape for the new manager. Whether we will be in 2 years remains to be seen but past performance indicates we are unlikely to terminally decline under him so I'm not sure there's reason to believe that we'll be in a worse (or better) stage when he does leave. Possible that we will start to decline under him but we haven't yet despite people's predictions that we'd be in mid-table by now.

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Then it's a comprehension problem. You're still asking what I mean after I've made the point.

We ended up in 5th despite spending more money than we ever did when first moving into the Emirates.

You always come back at people that say this is the year we’ll finally drop out of the top 4 and when it finally happens you’re still in denial. We may not see a steep sharp fall off a cliff anytime soon but whilst we’ve stagnated, the tides are rising.

Furthermore, put aside constant goal post shifting when it comes to measuring performances. The question is, if you’re not watching the football and have lost interest because of the way we’re managed, how is that a sign of us being in ‘good shape’? Why even argue about performances if you no longer give a shit about the club? The argument has gone way over your head. Forget any talk of falling out of the top 4 or being a midtable team, that’s nothing compared to fans just throwing the towel in. It’s bigger than GW. I guarantee that most people on here that used to speak with close friends and family about Arsenal don’t even bother any more. I know that’s true of my circle and I’ve a lot of other people say the same. That’s the bigger picture. You can see it and hear it at the ground as well.

If Wenger would have left this season, I’d agree about us being in good shape to change things up. There would have been hope to hanging on to Sanchez and even if not, I’m sure a new manager would have had an idea for possible replacements. But what I didn’t anticipate is the way prices have gone through the roof. God knows what we’ll be looking at in two years and that’s even if Wenger leaves in two years. Again, we have an owner that still renewed his contract despite dropping out of the top 4 and obvious drop in revenue plus fan discontent. Fuck knows the type of manager they decide to appoint when he finally fucks offs. That’s the real worry. If they do something stupid like appoint a complete novice to takeover, we’re going to be fucked.

Also, how can you not see us in a state of decline despite constantly referencing Man Utd dropping out of the Top 4 after changing managers?

LOL. He's doing it on purpose.

He's even more senile than the child rapist Donald Trump.

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Originally Posted by GP

He's even more senile than the child rapist Donald Trump.

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:gp:

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

We ended up in 5th despite spending more money than we ever did when first moving into the Emirates.

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OK. And the 3 seasons before that we finished 4th, then 3rd, then 2nd. Yes, we then dropped to 5th but if you draw a graph of those 4 years then there's no clear trend, is there?
Last year's 5th place COULD be the start of a downward trend or it could be a blip. We can't tell right now.

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The question is, if you’re not watching the football and have lost interest because of the way we’re managed, how is that a sign of us being in ‘good shape’?

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I'm not sure how my personal interest, or lack thereof, is in any way correlated with the state of the club. You cited a general lowering of interest and while that is certainly evident on here (particularly by NQ who has watched both games so far and avidly posted about them in the match threads to show how disinterested he is), there is only a problem for the club if there is a serious drop in match day revenue and so far I haven't see much evidence of that.
I've lost interest because of the endless Groundhog Day at Arsenal and because of how football as a sport has gone. That COULD become a problem if the disinterest becomes more widespread and the ground starts to empty but right now that hasn't happened. And actually, even if it did that might wake the board up to replace the manager and it wouldn't take much for the fans to return. A new manager here, a key signing there. As I said it's almost impossible to completely walk away from it all, it's not like supermarkets where you can start shopping at another one and you probably won't switch back. It wouldn't take much for fans to get engaged again. If they change to the wrong manager then that could see us decline more seriously although the whole way football is set up right now is designed to keep the rich clubs rich. Utd did drop out of the top 4 when they changed to Moyes but it hasn't taken them long to get back on track because they have the resources to do so and I imagine they'll be back up there this season.

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Why even argue about performances if you no longer give a shit about the club?

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When did I ever say I don't care about the club? It's almost impossible to completely disassociate oneself from it, I kept an eye on the score on Friday and I watched the highlights (wouldn't have done had we lost).
But I'm not as interested as I used to be, I have no idea who we are playing next or when. A few years ago it would have been in my diary, now I'm more "Meh" about it.

We could be 'fucked' but it's impossible to be so certain about that right now.

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I've lost interest because of the endless Groundhog Day at Arsenal and because of how football as a sport has gone. That COULD become a problem if the disinterest becomes more widespread and the ground starts to empty but right now that hasn't happened. And actually, even if it did that might wake the board up to replace the manager and it wouldn't take much for the fans to return. A new manager here, a key signing there

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As said, dropping out of the CL has resulted in a drop in revenue but Wenger was still handed a new contract. We're talking about people really having to give up on the club to see a change and there are no guarantees fans will return if interest drops so low.

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Why even argue about performances if you no longer give a shit about the club?

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Figure of speech, Letters. You've lost interest. That's bad enough.

It is bad that I've lost interest although to be honest I feel a bit "meh" about the whole game now. It's not the sport I grew up with, it's not a sport at all any more really and I really don't care that much which billionaire's team beats which other billionaire's team.
Personally I hope the bubble bursts and from the wreckage we might be able to salvage something. Don't see that happening any time soon though.

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Originally Posted by Letters

It is bad that I've lost interest although to be honest I feel a bit "meh" about the whole game now. It's not the sport I grew up with, it's not a sport at all any more really and I really don't care that much which billionaire's team beats which other billionaire's team.
Personally I hope the bubble bursts and from the wreckage we might be able to salvage something. Don't see that happening any time soon though.

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More people are coming away with that view hence why I think we’re in bad shape. Even with Wenger gone, I think it would take a lot to get people back if fans turn their back on the sport.

Maybe, although fans are very fickle. But I don't see an en masse turning of backs is a bad thing if it happens across the board. Might even turn it into a sport again.

Yeah I think it's more of a constant drip feed of apathy.

People aren't abandoning the game en masse, but every season they are just shrugging their shoulders a little bit more

I remember a time when an Arsenal defeat used to put me in a bad mood for the entire weekend, now it's just a quick blast of "fuck Wenger" and moving on.

If I still had same enthusiasm for football. I think I would have been incandescent with rage over Wenger not only signing a new contract but getting up to his old prevaricating bullshit in the transfer market, now I'm just what you gonna do?

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Yeah I think it's more of a constant drip feed of apathy.

People aren't abandoning the game en masse, but every season they are just shrugging their shoulders a little bit more

I remember a time when an Arsenal defeat used to put me in a bad mood for the entire weekend, now it's just a quick blast of "fuck Wenger" and moving on.

If I still had same enthusiasm for football. I think I would have been incandescent with rage over Wenger not only signing a new contract but getting up to his old prevaricating bullshit in the transfer market, now I'm just what you gonna do?

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Exactly. It's going It's a gradual process.

Aye. I think part of it is getting older. A defeat against Spurs would put me in a bad mood for a week.
Now I tend not to bother watching, generally check the result after, think "oh", and get on with my day.
Almost impossible to completely get away with it, I was genuinely irritated when I saw we'd got 3-2 down on Friday and pleased when I saw we'd won, but I certainly don't plan my weeks or life in any way around Arsenal games any more.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Maybe, although fans are very fickle. But I don't see an en masse turning of backs is a bad thing if it happens across the board. Might even turn it into a sport again.

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It might help. But in our case, we're depending on the Board to make the right choice when it comes to our next manager.

Wenger will probably choose them :trophy:


:ilt:

Gabriel could be on his way out. Valencia interested.

So much for that stat software. :violin:

18 mill for Jonny Evans :haha:

:haha:

:haha:

:doh:

:lol:

:haha:

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Gabriel could be on his way out. Valencia interested.

So much for that stat software. :violin:

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Could we not sell the software too? Cheeky fiver?

And does this mean that crackpipe sucking crackpot Wenger genuinely fancies Elneny as a CB? Because you know all our CBs are due to be injured within the next few weeks.

Serge Aurier to Spurs. Why are we not in there...we desperately need a RB. Bellerin is looking really pish these days anyway...and who else to back him up?. wasnt he supposed to be an Arsenal fan anyway?

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Serge Aurier to Spurs. Why are we not in there...we desperately need a RB. Bellerin is looking really pish these days anyway...and who else to back him up?. wasnt he supposed to be an Arsenal fan anyway?

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When you reward a very green and inexperienced rightback a contract worth up to a reported £100k a week, you’re now committed to seeing that player develop and play week in week out. I highly doubt we’re looking at other players to take his spot because of a dip in form.

Speaking of wages, I’m shocked that we doled out £100k to Bellerin with little fuss but wouldn’t offer that much to Sagna! We really should reward loyalty. Sagna was getting older and not that great going forward but he was a solid defender and I feel like our defence has been shaky since he left. We were looking solid just before he left and shouldn’t have disrupted it. Should have made Bellerin fight to win his place from Sagna and it would also keep Sagna on his toes.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Gabriel could be on his way out. Valencia interested.

So much for that stat software. :violin:

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Who would have thought that signing a player purely based on stats was maybe not the wisest idea. What a weird club.

You think he was only signed based only on stats? What's your basis for that? :blink:

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Originally Posted by Letters

You think he was only signed based only on stats? What's your basis for that? :blink:

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Have you heard of StatDNA before? The system Kroenke pushed for us to acquire.

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ulista-signing

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“I cannot tell you all but he has good stats,” Wenger said, when asked whether Gabriel had been spotted via the numbers, which StatDNA, the US-based business that Arsenal purchased for £2.2m, supply. Was that a yes then, Arsène? “It is not a no,” he replied.

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It's what we used to help us sign Gabriel.

Sure, it's used to help identify targets, but we'll scout them as well. It's not purely on stats.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Serge Aurier to Spurs. Why are we not in there...we desperately need a RB. Bellerin is looking really pish these days anyway...and who else to back him up?. wasnt he supposed to be an Arsenal fan anyway?

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Aurier is a massive cunt.

I'm sure all clubs use stats as part of their scouting these days. Buying a player just on the basis of watching him a few times is as ridiculous as buying a player just on the basis of their stats.
I seriously doubt Arsenal or any other club do either.

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Originally Posted by Letters

You think he was only signed based only on stats? What's your basis for that? :blink:

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Maybe not only but they played a big part, the scouts thought he was decent but needed stats to back up their opinion for some reason.

Wenger though looking at stats limited the risk, seems not. Personally prefer the method of signing proven established players, wasting money on player like Gabriel and Mustafi because they're unknown and cheaper in the hope you find a gem is a false economy, we end up wasting millions on rubbish.

Chambers, Mustafi, Gabriel all signed up for decent money and none of them any good. For that we could have signed a top top centre half and had cash to spare, not Wenger though.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

Have you heard of StatDNA before? The system Kroenke pushed for us to acquire.

https://www.theguardian.com/football...ulista-signing



It's what we used to help us sign Gabriel.

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From the article you linked to:

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Wenger was certainly keener to speak, in general terms, about how the observations of his scouts had to come first. The computer-generated statistics were merely a means of reinforcing judgment.

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“Does this system find players for us? That is what we look for, of course, because it is difficult to watch all the games. But what I mean is that if the numbers confirm the eye, it gives you more.

“If a guy [scout] comes home and says: ‘I’ve seen a good player,’ you can statistically observe this player for five, six, seven games. You send him again, he comes back and says he’s a good player‚ the numbers confirm it, you can say the risk is limited. Though there is always a risk.

“We have our own system [through StatDNA], with qualities we think are important. After that, you have the attitude of the player. Because you can have good stats for a while but if you go out every night until six o’clock in the morning, it won’t last.”

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It’s an exaggeration to say we signed him purely off stats but it’s what brought him to our attention.

Wenger went on to talk about communication being important and how Gabriel not speaking a word of English may be a problem but we still went ahead a signed him.

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“He does not speak a word of English and that can cost you goals,” Wenger said. “If you mix going forwards with backwards, it can cost you. It is a position where you need to know your partners and you need to communicate as well. We try to teach him the important words. Like ‘Offside.’ And ‘Look at the linesman’.”

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Did the above occur to them before signing Gabriel or after? Whatever the case, it seems like the stats overruled common sense and now we’re having to move him on. I don’t have a problem with using stats to back up what the eye can see but you have to question the intelligence behind certain decisions.

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Originally Posted by Letters

From the article you linked to:

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From your initial reaction, you had no idea we were using StatDNA. You pulled a face as if to say Zim and Marc were making it up.