Are the doubters wrong about Wenger?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Herb, you can check out of this conversation at any point. I just didn't appreciate the line about being pathologically adverse to Wenger or being a Mourinho lover of all things. There is no need to go down that route and get emotional. When it comes to the finance issue, what is it that you have a problem with?

1- The fact that outside investment is allowed?
2- The amount allowed to be invested?
3- Or whose investing?

There are holes in the argument. Why downplay Liverpool'a succes becaue they've spent £100m but turn a blind eye when we spent £50m of Fizsman's money when that was a huge sum way back then? Had, like in Manure's case, the money been generated from football, why is ok for us to take outside money from Danny? Is it the amount that matters or how it was generated? Then we look to Chelsea and City and there is a problem with the owners not loving the club and how that money may have been acquired. It's a lot of grey areas that's hard to regulate. I agree with the part about a salary cap even thought that may cause problems, but I've always been a fan of the American system. It seems more fair to what we have now.

This debates all over the shop and I'm not switching goal posts. It's just interesting to here people talk about football finance. The growns grow louder now that we're not winning, but when we were nobody damn about the little clubs below us struggling that couldn't afford to do what we were doing. The game has never been fair but you only want justice when your the victim, right?

I applaud our financial model to a degree and trying to stay Financially independent but I have a serious problem with the burden being lumped on to the fans. That's no good for me or anyone else if we can't afford to go to games.

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You have clearly changed the goalposts, because you can't answer my assertion that there is no equivalency between Fiszmans outside investment and that of Chelsea you shift the premise to should there be any outside investment full stop. Which for me is like if I tell you that there is no comparison between downloading music off the Internet and mass murder, and you responding but they are both crimes and what can we do to tackle crime in modern society. Possibly a salient point, but its totally shifting the emphasis.

I am glad that Liverpool will probably win the title and there is no equivalency towards what Chelsea and Man City have done, but if I were to do what you are doing and change the parameters of the argument I think it's fair to say that I believe it a bit glib that there is a perception of Liverpool winning the right way when they are losing money hand over fist.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

It's the individuals that make the problems. I'd agree, in the absence of governing bodies that actually give a shit about the game beyond its ability to be their cash cow it's not a surprise that similarly unethical types will be attracted to the sport. In fact it's inevitable, like flies to shit. There's supposed to be a test for who is allowed to operate, the gypos have had two criminals (not hyperbole, fact) own them now. These are individuals you can look up in daily newspapers, no background checks even required. When it's that blatant then obviously the test is a sham. And so it is safe to conclude the regulatory bodies are just as harmful to the game as the crooks they are letting into it. That's where a clean up needs to start. Shits like Blatter and his host of cronies, the buffers at the FA who watch it all sail past without ever paying heed to their duties.

FFP could have had some influence if it hadn't been crafted by dodgy individuals. Now it transpires this is just another cash grab for the likes of Platini, there is no intention to clean up the game. They'd rather hammer a player for making a gesture on the pitch and then spend a month in the papers praising themselves for being at the progressive forefront of change, when in reality they are all about business as usual. FFP could have simply stated that clubs need to run as a business within certain boundaries. No need to chuck clubs out of Europe, that was a red herring designed to fail because they knew the lawyers would have a field day with it. Instead dock 3 points, 6 points, 12 points and these clubs don't qualify for Europe anyway. That's what a smart administrator with genuine intent would have done. You get caught paying Neymar's dad a million quid - 3 point fine, get caught involved in all manner of transfer abuses, 6 points. Barca would be out of the CL by now without ever having been thrown out. But they'll dock a club points for having a brawl on the pitch.

It's a sad day when we have to look to the Italians for balls when it comes to taking action against structural corruption. The fucking Italians! It took big balls to relegate a top club. That came down to individuals too. It's all about individuals and they should be allowed to hide behind faceless organisations of shell companies and plead their innocence. First step before anything else can happen is to root the bastards out.

Then we'll start working towards the day when we can see if Mourinho can emulate his Porto days again. Maybe it's not just Wenger who has his best days behind him and is a bit behind the times?

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It's worrying times and I doubt FIFA anf UEFA will do anything about it. That's a good rule regarding the FFP and point deductions but we both know that won't happen. I'm sure I read a headline that said the current clubs under investigation won't even be thrown out of Europe this year. I'd have to check the full report but I'm skeptical about the whole throwing out of Europe idea. I've already read a couple of articles stoking up the idea of a European Super League. Something about Bayern being too good for the German league and maybe they should leave....whatever! That's probably going to happen in the future if FIFA and UEFA get too heavy handed. I doubt they will against the status quo traditional clubs and I suspect reps of the traditional elite clubs want the authorities to come down on new money clubs just so they can maintain their dominance.

It's not a fair system and there must be crooks at Board level at most clubs. This is the corporate world we're talking about. But on the playing side, I think football has always been too reliant on money and that's why we get so many sub par coaches. It's not just at title winning level, we see it with some of the smaller clubs facing relegation trying to buy as much foreign talent when they arrive in the Prem and gamble with resources just to stay up. It's good to see clubs with a strong youth system make it in the league and stay up. That's how the game should be. The sign of a very good manager is one that can get the very best out of what he has. I respect Wenger's vision for the game in that regards. When he steps down from the game, he should take on a role as head of UEFA or FIFA because he has an ethical vision to the way things should be run and thinks of things most coaches don't even concern themselves over.

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I have a serious problem with the burden being lumped on to the fans.

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How can you be pragmatic about the influence of money in the game and the lament the effect that has on the fans? Anyway, what fans? How many of the £3 ticket and pie brigade even go any more? So many priced out, myself included. It would cost me the best part of £100 to go to a home match and I'm only an hour and a half away by train. But if we want biog stadiums and mercenary players on £300k per week and agents wanting multi-million quid bungs and kits that cost £100 quid and American style razzmatazz and all the glitter that's now piled on top of what is still basically the same art of 22 bloke kicking a ball around, which you used to be able to see for a few quid, then the blame needs to be shared all around, doesn't it?

Shitty owners who are in it for the investment, Sky TV (the runner-up prize for the fans priced out), greedy bastard players who in the main aren't a patch on the the heroes of old who could really play the game and did it for a tenner a week which they spent down in the local drinking with the fans. This shit we have now isn't better in any way, but it costs 20, 30, 50 times more. When it looks like, smells like, sounds like and quacks like a racket then it's a racket. And the dumb rules are simple enough, if he's doing it then you need to d it, just to stand still. Keeping up with the Joneskis and the Al-Jonas. What did people think was going to happen to the game when these bastards were allowed to through the door?

This is what turning a blind eye, being pragmatic about abuse and being complacent about robbery produces. The fans went along with all of it, in fact some of them call our own manager a cunt because he won't play the inflation game - even the the money has to come from somewhere (euphemism for the fans' pockets). It's all on the fans. Ticket prices, train prices, the price of a bag of chips, a drink down the pub. Who do you think ultimately foots the Puma bill? They ain't doing it for love of the club. Fans will pick up that tab in increased merchandising costs. Are Vodaphone chipping in? Increased phone bills. Barclays? Increased bank charges. It's all on the fans - or should I say consumers because that's a much more accurate term now.

This is the effect of unlimited money in the game. A ravaging from top to bottom. Cunts like Rooney who is mediocre compared to a Jimmy Greaves, £300K. Theo, haven't done a bloody thing in my career Walcott (as an example, he's forgiven now), I want £100K, I want to play here or there, I want. Used to be he'd clean the boots and like it and maybe, maybe the manager would throw him a bone from time to time to keep him engaged.

This is money. And to round it all off, that once prestigious now hateful club Chavski with their hateful, criminal, thieving motherfucker of a rat bastard Abramovich dumping the money he stole from millions of common people into an already shit soaked sport and hiring a fucking tosser like Mourinho and giving him a billion fucking quid and the cunt STILL parks a bus and delights in destroying the spectacle? Fuck me. They've taken everything. Can we not even have the original game that was there? Not even that?

That's money. That's what it does. That's why people may not be able to put a precise finger on it but they instinctively hate it anyway and that's why I'll never give an inch of credit to a bunch of cunts who have wapped their wad on the table and bought football so a photo of them getting sucked by Bobby Charlton could hang in their mansion above their Chippendale record player and Fabergé ashtray.

Cunts.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

To be honest i think you are casting pearls amongst swine even bothering to answer this guy, i am not convinced he wants a genuine discussion he has changed the parameters even of what we are discussing when it becomes abundantly clear that his own argument doesn't work.
Like Ozim (or whatever the fuck his name is) the long and short of it is, they are digging and digging in order to provide some justification for their inate reaction of disgust and anger to everything that comes from Wenger's mouth. It's perfectly fine that they feel that way and if they had actually had the clout to admit that nine years of frustration causes them to respond to him irrationally than i'd respect them a lot more for it.
In many respects my own antipathy towards Mourinho is irrational, but even if i didn't have a deep personal dislike for the man i'd still feel that there is a level of illegitimacy towards what he has won with Chelsea. To extend that to his time at Porto, Inter and even Real Madrid (where arguably his record was a very mixed bag) would be stretching things somewhat....all of these clubs to some extent or another are self-sustaining.

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Herb - stop getting emotional and grow up. You're getting personal and tetchy and making rubbish up. This conversation doesn't concern Arsene Wenger. It started from Jose and Fergie and it's evolved into football finances. If you can't keep up without name calling then bow out. I haven't resorted to any of that in my post and now your just clutching at straws and it's getting nasty. The problem I have with most fans when it comes it this topic is the reluctance to admit money plays too much of a factor in football.

Which is why I want Liverpool to win it. Not because they are angelic, but because they are a couple of yards closer to where the game used to be. Just a couple of yards mind, it's all that's on offer.

Truth be told, if the spuds won it I'd be crying but some of the tears would be for laughing.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Herb - stop getting emotional and grow up. You're getting personal and tetchy and making rubbish up. This conversation doesn't concern Arsene Wenger. It started from Jose and Fergie and it's evolved into football finances. If you can't keep up without name calling then bow out. I haven't resorted to any of that in my post and now your just clutching at straws and it's getting nasty. The problem I have with most fans when it comes it this topic is the reluctance to admit money plays too much of a factor in football.

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What's wrong with emotional? Damn, that's why we're in it. Along with idealism and even naivety - why not? If the whole world was rationally submissive we'd be right up shit street. A world of drones. It's the ones who get emotional and shout out what they are thinking without the fear of some terrified bloke telling them to shush who make life interesting. Otherwise we'd be cradle to grave without living at all.

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It's worrying times and I doubt FIFA anf UEFA will do anything about it.

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Yeah they will, they'll up their fees.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Herb - stop getting emotional and grow up. You're getting personal and tetchy and making rubbish up. This conversation doesn't concern Arsene Wenger. It started from Jose and Fergie and it's evolved into football finances. If you can't keep up without name calling then bow out. I haven't resorted to any of that in my post and now your just clutching at straws and it's getting nasty. The problem I have with most fans when it comes it this topic is the reluctance to admit money plays too much of a factor in football.

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I don't believe I was name calling, I am merely stating a fact that it is futile to engage in discussion with someone who when they cannot win an argument just changes it to another argument and pretends the original one didnt exist.
Of course there is a debate to be had over finances in football my point is is that it wasn't the debate we were having. And attempting to patronise me doesn't change that.
Im simply suggesting to NQ that there really is nothing to profit in engaging with someone who obfuscates as much as you appear to

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

You have clearly changed the goalposts, because you can't answer my assertion that there is no equivalency between Fiszmans outside investment and that of Chelsea you shift the premise to should there be any outside investment full stop. Which for me is like if I tell you that there is no comparison between downloading music off the Internet and mass murder, and you responding but they are both crimes and what can we do to tackle crime in modern society. Possibly a salient point, but its totally shifting the emphasis.

I am glad that Liverpool will probably win the title and there is no equivalency towards what Chelsea and Man City have done, but if I were to do what you are doing and change the parameters of the argument I think it's fair to say that I believe it a bit glib that there is a perception of Liverpool winning the right way when they are losing money hand over fist.

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That's a stretch. No, it's more like what's the difference between illegally downloading a song and illegally downloading a whole album. It's the same problem just multiplied and that's how I see it when talking about finances in football. Most teams are over reliant on the transfer window and finances to get one over the other team.

Say Man City and Chelsea were owned by lifelong genuine billionaire fans? Would it be ok if they pumped the same amount of money the current City owners pump into the club? I doubt it because we'd have the same problems. Outside investment is outside investment which is why I'm not going to distinguish the differences between Fiszmans character and the current owners of Chelsea and City. I don't even know how Danny acquired his wealth, ethical or not. I don't think the current authorities have the time or resources to make that sort of distinction either. Change the rules and they may have some success into getting some fairness.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

What's wrong with emotional? Damn, that's why we're in it. Along with idealism and even naivety - why not? If the whole world was rationally submissive we'd be right up shit street. A world of drones. It's the ones who get emotional and shout out what they are thinking without the fear of some terrified bloke telling them to shush who make life interesting. Otherwise we'd be cradle to grave without living at all.

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Well I wasn't getting emotional I'm more pointing out some facts, this individual resents my inferences that he has a pathological adversity towards Wenger yet was happy to assert all of his "inferences" as factually accurate.
He still can't respond to the point about equivalency so he takes the whole debate down a cul de sac and then gets exasperated when he's reminded of that.