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He might just be waiting to see where he stands in Emery's plans. It wouldn't be great for him if he signs a new deal but doesn't get enough games, or if he gets played out of position.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
But the cynic in me does think he's trying to squeeze more money out of the club.
I get your point of view on principle and normally I wouldn't advocate spending such sums on a single player myself. As you suggest, we can afford to, but not within the current strategy. If Wenger was willing to spend 100 mill on Mbappe (which I am increasingly hearing was true) then I see no reason why we can't take a hit now. People just blindly choose to believe it isn't possible because that is what they would have the club do themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
I think we've wasted vast sums of money of players we didn't need to buying players we weren't fully convinced about or buying cheap...so buying twice rather than just going for the right quality in the first place. I understand there is a need from a lot of people to suddenly see everything the current regime is doing as studiously wise and canny but I really question the Leno purchase which itself was no small fee considering we don't even expect him beyond doubt to be first team. I am certain that had we actually signed Oblak instead of Leno most people would have made their peace with it, be justifying it and praising it in equal measure!
I would love us to sign a world class midfielder but we're not going to sign one for 70 million.....it would cost probably in excess of 100 mil....see Milinkovic-savic. Besides, we've already done smart business on Torreira....so the key position their is addressed unless Ramsey gives us another headache by leave, which he may still do.
We should always be looking to improve wherever the position....we could win the league with an inferior keeper to Oblak, but the rest of the team needs so much work we would have even more work to do in the other positions. We've made our decision on the goalkeeper already so yeah I'm debating for the sake of debating (which some on here oddly seem to be failing to understand despite being enlisted on a chat forum).
Yes, if Ramsey decides to go, we'll need a CM. If Xhaka can't improve his game, we'll need a CM. If Ozil can't adjust to playing on the wing, we'll need a replacement for him as well. Aubameyang and Mkhitaryan are close to hitting 30 as well. If it cost £100m for a superstar player, it is what it is. Supply and demand. All the more reason why I'm against spending close to that amount on a position that isn't high demand / short supply. Nome of our rivals have spent anything close to that amount on a goalkeeper, even the super clubs. Where is the evidence that £70m is the new standard for a goalkeeper?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
No idea! It’s all gone very quiet.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
I really hope he stays - his engine will be a real asset if we’re going for an intense, high press, and his ability to effectively double-up as either a third midfielder or a second striker will certainly be useful for those overloads that everyone keeps going on about.
Having said that, I also hope we have a deadline and a backup plan and in mind, if it comes to it.
One positive is that I haven’t heard shit from the player or his agent, agitating for a move away, and there’s been no leaked stories of interest or cryptic farewell tweets.
I like Ramsey, I think he has a level or two still in him, I also think that under a structured team, which I assume Emery is building...he will thrive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
He is a perfect player for the pressing game too, the guy can run all day long.
I worry about his fitness. I don't know if he'll be able to stay injury free.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
It isn't anything like a new standard. I just think given the profile of the player he is worth it....and from a purely business asset point of view (not my personal inclination....just playing devil's advocate) it is certainly a reasonable investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
Like I said, I get why others don't but I really believe he is. Like I also said, this is partly motivated by my being plagued with doubts about how good Leno is.... but when he finally plays for us, if he proves to be a worldie, I will rightfully congratulate the current regime on an excellent choice. It is about time we had a world class goalkeeper just as I thought after we finally signed Aubameyang it is about bloody time we had a world class forward.
I don't see a problem personally, though I agree about inflating the market, you say we can find talent but in 22 years we haven't found once top class keeper, if it was that easy most top clubs would find one and not bother buying one in. Chesney isn't top class IMO, good keeper and all that but not top class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
The reality is finding any top class player is hard, regardless of position, Spurs found Kane (we had him in fact but didn't rate him oddly) and didn't need to spend megabucks, Liverpool have found several top strikers at decent money as well.
Maybe not, but every club that has won the titlein England in recent times has had a top keeper I think, but it can make the difference between winning it and not winning it, in big games where chances are few and far between a keeper can be the difference between winning and losing
Gazidis is going to AC Milan.
Weird.
That would be utterly bizarre.
Milan might want him but I really doubt he’s going to leave during the most important period of his time with us.
Would be no great loss, been here for 9 years and we've not improved at all, sure there's been changes recently but the guy was considering Arteta, enough to make me think he doesn't know what he's doing.
Commercially we're not even all that when compared with other big clubs, Milan are welcome to him.
I have doubts about Leno too...feels very opportunist to me. So does Sokratis to a lesser extent...but that's for another thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
I get both sides of the argument, spending 70million on a world class keeper sounds steep and blows our budget apart, but if we get 10 years decent service out of that investment then it's money well spent.
There is a risk to any signing regardless of the amount, you can spend 35million on someone (ahem mustafi and xhaka) and if they flop...which they have done...then they are very difficult to shift...especially at anywhere near the price we originally paid for them.
Makes sense. Pay these guys enough money and of course they’ll jump ship. This recent change at Arsenal has no impact on him. If he goes he’d just be replaced by some other faceless corporate twat.
Hoping it's just him angling for a raise.Quote:
Originally Posted by GP
I mean he's won the years long power struggle and was finally able to bring on the power structure he wanted with Sven, Raul, Huss etc ..... to leave now after all that would be very strange. Especially to Milan who are a hot mess with no European football and new owners after the previous ones wern't able to pay their loans back.
Would be very worried if he left tbh. For all the shit he gets he does seem to at least know to say the right things and display some ambition. Worried that Kroenke would just bring a complete suit who won't even do that and instead be solely focused on profits.
I've a feeling that Josh Kroenke would be the replacement.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico
That’s the story that’s been painted but we’ve no way of knowing whether it was Kroenke who wanted this structure, or if Josh has been sticking his oar in more.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico
Kroenke has said plenty of good things because he knows how to play the CEO role to a tee. But he’s delivered nothing. Whether that’s out of his hands or not, who knows. But we sure as hell aren’t challenging with Bayern as he said 5 years ago. We’ll hardly notice he’s gone if he walks.
Talking about keepers and Oblak Liverpool have bid £62 million for Alisson, they clearly think a decent keeper is worth big money.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44864358
I keep hearing about this great engine that Ramsey has...Do people always go for repeating what other people tell them or believe the evidence of their own eyes. This myth of Ramsey's supposed great engine was first dropped by Cesc on his way out. Its BS. If Ramsey has an engine it is a diesel engine, minus the turbos. He cant even run very fast. Slow as fk and he is always injured. A slow unreliable diesel engine that is always in the workshop on repair.
Ramsey and his agent should scour the market and see who else needs a Transit van that thinks its a Ferrari. Good luck with that. None of the top 5 teams has a vacancy for him. Not 1.
Nope, It's a fact that he has a good engine. Take a look at the distance covered stats and there's your proof. He spends the whole match running around the pitch like a headless chicken and he still has enough reserves in his tank to make those sprints into the box in the last 15 minutes when most of the other players are tired.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
If only he had a brain to go with that engine...
You know why we haven't signed a top class keeper in years. The same applies to defenders and CM's. We'd still be talking about signing a top striker if not for Lacazette and Aubameyang. How in the world did Spurs beat us to Lloris?Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Wenger didn’t think he was an improvement on what we had at the time! IIRC, we had Chesney as the number 1 along with Manuel butter fingers!Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
Ill try and dig up the article with those direct quotes from Wenger.
Lloris went to that lot for a price well within our budget too, he was cheap as chips.
They are bringing in the absolute best options available within their budget. We should have been doing stuff like this years ago instead of scraping around the bargain bucket. Now we have no choice, any budget we did have has been blown over the past few years mainly on duds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Aye, agree with this. I think Ramsey is one player who will profit from Emery’s high press system.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
Ughh hope not. I mean tbf he does seem like he's eager about the club but he clearly doesn't have the football experience for it. I can see him getting eaten alive by the other CEO's.Quote:
Originally Posted by GP
tbf it was pretty clear that up until very recently that Wenger was the real CEO at the club so it's to really unfair to judge him for failing to deliver on his past promises when he was hamstrung by being unable to go against the old goat. Assuming he stays though then yes he now has to deliver and be held accountable.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMatthews
And doubtful. The Kroenke are known for their absenteeism and Josh up until January at least was more focused on their NBA franchise - I doubt he was capable of drawing plans to restructure the club. It's been Ivan as you can see from how front & centre he was in the Unai Emery hiring process and some of the hires he's made (Raul for example was friend of Ivan's who'd worked with him in the past).
But you must realise Liverpool are in the position of being able to spend their entire transfer budget on a keeper because they have no other obvious weak areas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
It's the one area where they need a significant improvement and what cost them the CL title. They wouldn't blow a budget on the keeper if they didn't have Mane and Salah banging in goals.
We've been in similar positions before like the year we blew the title to Leicester City. We needed a top class striker that year.
They've signed Shaquiri for 13million, Fabinho for 45 million and Keita for 54 million so with Allison you're looking at closer to 200 million. You might argue that the Keita funds were set aside from last summers kitty, but that touches back upon my view that there's no reason not to view windows in 2's and combine budgets.
Admittedly it doesn't help us that we have been horrible in recent years at selling for big fees or as Selassie points out, spending positively significant sums on chumps like Mustafi and Xhaka who nobody would pay near the price we paid for them now. More reason not to hedge medium/high range sums on players we aren't absolutely sure about.
70 mil on Mustafi and Xhaka :doh:
Lord knows where you plucked that £100m price tag from for a midfielder. :lol: How are Liverpool able to pay half that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
Liverpool have money left over from the Coutinho transfer and if they wanted to, they could choose to blow £70m on a keeper. It's the area they have to strengthen this season. It would be foolish not to. But it looks like they aren't going to spend that money on Oblak and match Atletico Madrid's valuation. I'm also hearing this news about Brazil's keeper is false too. We'll see how much they're willing to spend on a keeper and if they don't spend it on Oblak, why not? I don't know much about Allison or where this price tag came from. See how a market gets inflated? At first we were talking about Oblak being worth £70m because of how good he is. Atletico's valuation has now set other clubs off thinking they have a £50m £60m player on their hands when only a few months back they were valued at £20m - £30m.
That's true however they bought other players too, so it's not their whole budget, they've signed players in several positions for decent money, this despite having a smaller stadium, having been in the CL much less etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
We've barely spent anything either (before Emery signed those players) because we had 40 million left from last summers sales, yes we spent a bit more for Aubameyang but not a lot, so in theory we should have just as much as Liverpool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
I agree with Blink though, it's a false economy buying mid range players a lot of the time as illustrated by the 70 million wasted on Mustafi and Xhaka, with that we could have signed a top class player who would probably be worth even more now and more importantly would make the team better. Liverpool have sold players for multiple times what they bought them 4, they seem to find top class players left right and centre, which makes me think that Klopp has a real eye for talent as well.
It does feel like we lining up with half of the cast of The Wizard of Oz at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
But, yeah, when most people talk about a player having an 'engine', they're generally talking about stamina and non-stop running for 90 minutes.
I think his ability to effectively double-up as a 3rd midfielder or an extra forward without the need for any on-field changes is what Emery will find most attractive - providing he can keep up with the constant back-and-forth (which is kind of his playing style anyway) then it could be like having a 12th man at times.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
Klopp can't be attributed with what you've said in bold for Liverpool. Under his management, they sold Countinho for a massive amount but he didn't sign Countinho in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Also, we can't forget the blunders Liverpool have made in recent years. They've made loses on sales after overspending on players like Andy Carol, Stewart Downing, Benteke, Joe Allen, Baloteli...I'm not going to pretend that they've had a desirable transfer policy. They've done great business with Saurez, Sterling and Countinho but that's about it. I'd love for us to be able negotiate that sort of transfer fee for our players but wouldn't go as far as saying they can spot talent.
Klopp has an eye for talent and it's been proven. It definitely is a false economy spending £70m on players like Mustafi and Xhaka but as said with the Oblak situation, that's a result of one club slapping a massive price tag on their star man. It raises the tide. If someone pays that amount for him, we'll start seeing other clubs slap £40m-£50m price tags on keepers that good mid range players. That's how we've been caught out with Xhaka and Mustafi.
Saying that, Klopp paid £75m for Van Dijk, £40m for Mane from Southampton. £25m for Wijnaldum from Newcastle. You're lying if you tell me you'd be happy with us spending that amount on Premier League players that weren't in the World Class conversation before Liverpool. They'd be greeted with the same skepticism as Mustafi and Xhaka. The key thing with Klopp is that he's willing to pay whatever it takes for the player he wants that he knows he needs for his system. If these players would have flopped, he ends up with egg on his face and would probably lose his job. That's a huge amount of faith and conviction he has. With what he's done at Dortmund and so far with Liverpool, he's earned faith back from the Board. Emery hasn't earned that over here with the Board or fans just yet. He needs time.
Last point, seeing how nuts things have gone with transfer valuations in such a short space of time, wouldn't it be wise to identify what it is that clubs like Liverpool, Spurs, Atletico and Dortmund are doing to be able to find £10m - £20m player and sell him on for a ridiculous fee if we're forced to sell? Oblak cost Atletico under £20m, Liverpool paid around £12m for Countinho. Wouldn't it be wise to try and get ahead of curve instead of always playing catch up? This is why I'm excited about Sven, Raul and Emery here at Arsenal. There is a clear strategy we're going for here. I think we're going to see a mix of big spending but also exciting new prospects.
I’m not sure why, but seeing a £62 million bid for a goalkeeper made me feel queasy yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
I know we’ve spent £50m on attacking players and there are players being sold for nearly £200m, maybe I justified those amounts because they are attacking players, I don’t know. Can’t quite place my finger on why, but that amount seems even more ludicrous for a keeper. Buffon went for about £40m back in 2001 I think, so the inflation is very low in that sense, but bloody hell. I’m just trying to ignore the transfer merry-go-round as much as possible so I can just concentrate on the actual games and try to forget the absurdity of the modern market.
Liverpool have agreed a deal for Alisson apparently £66.8 millionQuote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/44874142
Why can't he be attributed, he did it at Dortmund and now it's happening at Liverpool as well, it didn't happen before he arrived so much, Liverpool are a differerent team to the one they were before he arrived, both in terms of quality of play and quality of personnel and this can definitely be attributed to him, he's the guy that wasn't there before this change.
You mention blunders, but if anything this shows how much Liverpool have been willing to spend, all this without CL football, so the argument we can't spend 60 million on a keeper surely can't be right if we've had a much greater income than them? Besides we're talking about since Klopp came in and it seems to me that he's largely got it right so far with the transfer policy.
I don't agree about the Liverpool signings, Van Dijk was touted as a top notch talent, would have been happy to sign him, Mane was already very highly rated from his performances in England, you argued earlier that a striker cost megabucks and yet Liverpool signed Salah for a decent amount and have repeatedly found top strikers for what wouldn't be deemed as megamoney.
I do agree about the faith, Klopp arrived with a great reputation from Dortmund, but Liverpool have backed him 100% and he's repaid their faith IMO, Emery of course doesn't come with the same reputation but that doesn't mean the board can't see a good signing when they see one and Oblak is top notch, just like De Gea is, top keepers ted to remain top keepers until they get older, the cost per year would be relatively little, just as it has been with all the younger players who got signed for big money at the time, Rio Ferdinand seem to be a huge amount at 30 million at the time, but in terms of value for money he turned out great as he was top class for Man U for years, I think age of a plyer and how many years you'll get out of him plays a big part (which is why I guess signing Aubameyang despite his undoubted qualities was probably stranger, he'll probably only be at the top for a few more years, so per year would have cost a lot).
Yes of course it would be wise, but most of these clubs also spend big on players when they need someone in a certain position, they don't wait for someone woth 10-20 million to come good, whether we discover those players remains to be seen, you'd hope so but there's certainly no guarantee, so far we haven't signed many younger players so right now it seems unlikely.
Aubameyang is 29, which means he doesn't have a lot of years left at the top realistically, so if anything spending that much on someone of that age makes even less sense, they have no resale value and you probably won't get many years out of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMatthews
Personally think if you're going to pay 50-60 million for a players he needs to be in his early to mid 20s like Lacazette was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Oblak is rated as the best keeper in the world right now. It's between him and Neuer and De Gea. Why have Liverpool gone elsewhere?Quote:
Liverpool have agreed a deal for Alisson apparently £66.8 million
Because he didn't sign Countinho, that's why. Common sense, man. Talk about Klopp's record at Dortmund if you must but don't give him all the credit him for finding Countinho and selling him on for a huge fee. That's what that entire sentence from your post was about. Helping to develop talent, yes, give him credit for that but not for identifying undervalued players in the market and selling them on when he hasn't done that for Liverpool yet.Quote:
Why can't he be attributed, he did it at Dortmund and now it's happening at Liverpool as well, it didn't happen before he arrived so much
So what's the difference between Liverpool spending that amount on flops and us spending that amount on Xhaka and Mustafi? It comes down back to the coaches. My argument has never been that we haven't got £60m to spend, it's always been to spend wisely and see what Emery is capable of before we trust him with a massive amount. How do you rate Emery? What was your first impression when he was announced. Do you rate him as highly as Klopp? If we'd have spent 13m on Shaqiri, what would your reaction be? In fact, is there a Premier League defender with a mid table team you'd be happy to spend £75m on? It's all well and good talking after their a success. Name the players with mid table clubs you think it would be worth spending £40m to £75m on.Quote:
You mention blunders, but if anything this shows how much Liverpool have been willing to spend, all this without CL football, so the argument we can't spend 60 million on a keeper surely can't be right if we've had a much greater income than them? Besides we're talking about since Klopp came in and it seems to me that he's largely got it right so far with the transfer policy.
Also, just so we're on the same page, what do you think our transfer budget should be this year and how many players need replacing? I recall conversations about sweeping changes across the team. If we should be spending £70m on a goalkeeper, where else do you think we should be spending money? It also comes back to how much faith you have in Emery when it comes to spending. As for the Board, shouldn't it be obvious why we've appointed the guys from Dortmund and Barca to head up are scouting and recruitment?
Neymar went for 200 million to a club basically owned by a state with limitless wealth and it is the mere prospect of 62 million for a top keeper keeping you up at night? Get some sleep me old fruit...we don't even know it's true 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMatthews
Goalkeepers have been undervalued since the dawn of the game. It is increasingly primitive in context of the modern game. The blood hounds have already inflated the market.....we should simply recalibrate the value we place on goalkeepers within the context.
I don't know Allison as well but I rate Oblak as probably the second best keeper on the planet and he plays in one of the positions in which we can make the most improvement.
As an aside, Neuer is firmly behind De Gea and Oblak and has been for some time now imo.
Lets not forget that Liverpool are the 2nd biggest club in the country behind United, so they do have a huge worldwide fan base and are a bigger brand than we are. But why do we care so much about how much a player costs. It should only become an issue if things go the way like Portsmouth, Leeds, Villa etc.
But we bought a player for £100m it would not bankrupt the club. The fee probably would be paid over the length of the contract as well so not necessarily be going out of the bank straight away.
He is a good keeper, so if Liverpool want him then pay what Roma want to get him. Liverpool can afford it.