Match Reaction vs PNE (away, Cup).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cripps

How far away from the original topic are you now? Nobody has said the players shouldn't take responsibility. Nobody has said they don't make sloppy, shitty errors - on the contrary, we see them every week. The point was, is Wenger's football shit. After a decade, the self evident answer is yes and it has fuck all to do with the players. The players are a problem of a different kind, but it is Wenger and Wenger alone who has dreamed up the nightmarish system we play. It's his boring shitter-patter we've been putting up with for years. That's what the discussion was about. Why we play that sort of shit so much when we could utilise these players in a much more positive manner.

---

If you can't connect the dots it's a pointless discussion. The topic is on the game we just played. My argument is that there was something seriously wrong with the performance of the players more than the actual tactics for that game. We're still a tactically flawed team but the performances from certain players is below par. That's what hurt us most in the 1st half. 2nd half we didn't shift tactics from what I saw, we just upped our performance. To me, it sounds like you can't tell the difference between a player performing poorly compared to a player exposed by bad tactics. I'm no expert, but when players like Xhaka are taking heavy touches, has moments of lapsed concentration, can't make a simple pass....Ox failing to dribble past his man, Ramsey doing the usual Hollywood passes but failing....that says more about the players form and ability over tactics. Some of the stuff is very basic and we're not asking these guys to do something alien to their natural game.

Yes, tactically Wenger is pretty shit. Who is arguing against that? But before we can get to playing those flawed tactics the players have to at least play up to par. Getting basic passes and touches wrong is unacceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

If you can't connect the dots it's a pointless discussion. The topic is on the game we just played. My argument is that there was something seriously wrong with the performance of the players more than the actual tactics for that game. We're still a tactically flawed team but the performances from certain players is below par. That's what hurt us most in the 1st half. 2nd half we didn't shift tactics from what I saw, we just upped our performance. To me, it sounds like you can't tell the difference between a player performing poorly compared to a player exposed by bad tactics. I'm no expert, but when players like Xhaka are taking heavy touches, has moments of lapsed concentration, can't make a simple pass....Ox failing to dribble past his man, Ramsey doing the usual Hollywood passes but failing....that says more about the players form and ability over tactics. Some of the stuff is very basic and we're not asking these guys to do something alien to their natural game.

Yes, tactically Wenger is pretty shit. Who is arguing against that? But before we can get to playing those flawed tactics the players have to at least play up to par. Getting basic passes and touches wrong is unacceptable.

---

The topic was the difference between that shitty, aimless game we play and a direct approach that ups the tempo and moves the ball towards the opponents goal. The fact we even have to speak about it says everything about Wenger, regardless of the players. Every other team in football gets the obvious idea that moving the ball towards the opponents goal increases the chance of scoring a goal. This concept seems to have escaped Wenger though, or at least he's unlearned everything he brought to the club in his first few seasons.

But anyway, now that we've changed the topic, of course these lazy, underperforming players need to be called out for their lack of application. But that only leads to another Wenger debate. We've bee seeing careless, sloppy passing for several seasons now. Lousy first touches from supposedly technically gifted players. Hopeless blind passes straight to the opposition. Diabolical crossing. Stupid flicks and tricks that concede possession when, ironically, a simple pass would have kept the ball. Players who can't seem to handle the slightest amount of pressure when they are on the ball (bar the notable exceptions). All of these flaws have been evident in the team for years. Of course it is the players' faults they can't or won't get their shit together. But sitting on top of this mess is Wenger. If he's tried to do something about this, if he's modified the training, if he's reacted in any way then it's pretty damn obvious he's failed and is continuing to fail.

I believe that is you create an atmosphere of complacency and a lack of ambition at the top then it will quickly filter down through the entire organisation. And that's what we see in the players, the same complacency the whole club is soaked in. And we hear the same shit too, over and over again. Excuses, excuses, promises, promises. And yet the outcome is always the same. In the end you have a board and a manager that has watched all this for season after season. Perhaps it irritates them as much as the fans but I sincerely doubt that. Because if it did bother them they'd be moving heaven and hell and expending the necessary resources to fix the problems. But they aren't. Instead they all watch this Wenger project drone on. #90mill spent this summer to get worse. It's as we all feared, give the manager the money and it'll make no difference. Change the players and it makes no difference. Bring in super stars and they can't make a difference either, no matter how much they bust a gut in some cases. Same outcome.

That's because the same lousy attitude and general incompetence that characterises almost every moment of Wenger's latter reign has rotted this club to its core. Rightly blame the players for being part of it. That's fair enough. But go ahead and change them all and you'll get the same result.

Quote:

---

The topic was the difference between that shitty, aimless game we play and a direct approach that ups the tempo and moves the ball towards the opponents goal. The fact we even have to speak about it says everything about Wenger, regardless of the players. Every other team in football gets the obvious idea that moving the ball towards the opponents goal increases the chance of scoring a goal. This concept seems to have escaped Wenger though, or at least he's unlearned everything he brought to the club in his first few seasons.

---

You keep missing this simple point. The difference being the quality of the pass and first touch. You can't play at a higher tempo if players keep fucking up their first touch or misplace their pass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

You keep missing this simple point. The difference being the quality of the pass and first touch. You can't play at a higher tempo if players keep fucking up their first touch or misplace their pass.

---

Except we can play at a higher tempo and we've played our best games and achieved our best results playing that way. If the players are incapable of this then how did we manage to blow the likes of Utd and the chavs away? We've seen these players perform, we've seen them pass the ball directly and with laser precision and we've seen them achieve dominance over teams that we regularly fold to. So the capability is all there. But we see it far too infrequently. Do the players choose to play at a comatose tempo and in such a ponderous, negative fashion? Or is that what they are instructed to do? And if they are not instructed to play this way yet the manager sees such woeful performances on such a regular basis then what the fuck is he doing about it?

It's him, Wenger. Xhaka used to be able to pass a ball before he arrived at this club. For the first few games he could still pass. Now he can't. Chambers looked a bright prospect when he arrived. Now he's history. Gnabry couldn't get a game, now he's tearing it up elsewhere. Jack spent his whole time on the treatment table here, now he gets games elsewhere. If all these things are wrong at this club - and they are - then why should the training and quality control applied to the performances be anything other than fucked up and second rate?

It's him, Wenger.

Of course there were the rumours floating around that the players ignored the manager in at least a couple of those notable games where we performed to a standard the fans have every right to expect from this team. It's hard not to give that idea some credence given the gulf between those performances and what we normally endure.

Yes we can play at high tempo and from what we have glimpsed we are good at it. Theo plays best when his brain can't catch up with the speed of the ball, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cripps

Except we can play at a higher tempo and we've played our best games and achieved our best results playing that way. If the players are incapable of this then how did we manage to blow the likes of Utd and the chavs away? We've seen these players perform, we've seen them pass the ball directly and with laser precision and we've seen them achieve dominance over teams that we regularly fold to. So the capability is all there. But we see it far too infrequently. Do the players choose to play at a comatose tempo and in such a ponderous, negative fashion? Or is that what they are instructed to do? And if they are not instructed to play this way yet the manager sees such woeful performances on such a regular basis then what the fuck is he doing about it?

It's him, Wenger. Xhaka used to be able to pass a ball before he arrived at this club. For the first few games he could still pass. Now he can't. Chambers looked a bright prospect when he arrived. Now he's history. Gnabry couldn't get a game, now he's tearing it up elsewhere. Jack spent his whole time on the treatment table here, now he gets games elsewhere. If all these things are wrong at this club - and they are - then why should the training and quality control applied to the performances be anything other than fucked up and second rate?

It's him, Wenger.

Of course there were the rumours floating around that the players ignored the manager in at least a couple of those notable games where we performed to a standard the fans have every right to expect from this team. It's hard not to give that idea some credence given the gulf between those performances and what we normally endure.

Yes we can play at high tempo and from what we have glimpsed we are good at it. Theo plays best when his brain can't catch up with the speed of the ball, for example.

---

So you think it's a 'tactic' to take heavy touches and misplace passes? :rolleyes: It's pretty wild to attribute faults from an out of form player to a Wenger tactic or instruction. You're taking form and confidence out of the equation.

He doesn't instruct them to pass slower. In post match interviews he'll often say we didn't move the ball quick enough and the usual 'we lacked a bit of sharpness' or 'heavy legs' so that should be enough indication that he hasn't told them to play at a slower pace. I've said this before. It's pretty hard to remain composed, calm but play at a lightening fast pace and Wenger will often to refer to the players needing to be calm and composed when facing a stubborn defence. That's why I think the players can often get stuck in that one tempo phase of just moving the ball slowly. I don't think it's intentional but when we haven't got the confidence to play at a quicker pace because we've had some wayward passes or heavy touches....you get what we saw in the first half. That's my theory on why we're not playing to our full potential.

I can accept if the way we prepare for games mentally and what we do in training has the squad misfiring but that's different to tactics. It's something you keep muddling up.

You also may need to stop listening to the brainless English pundits on MOTD and BT Sports. That lack of footballing brain bollocks and Theo being at his best when not thinking is utter nonsense. The scorpion kick goal Giroud scored came about through pure instinct and just reacting to how the ball arrived. Most strikers react that way hence why they call it a 'strikers instinct'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

So you think it's a 'tactic' to take heavy touches and misplace passes? :rolleyes: It's pretty wild to attribute faults from an out of form player to a Wenger tactic or instruction. You're taking form and confidence out of the equation.

He doesn't instruct them to pass slower. In post match interviews he'll often say we didn't move the ball quick enough and the usual 'we lacked a bit of sharpness' or 'heavy legs' so that should be enough indication that he hasn't told them to play at a slower pace. I've said this before. It's pretty hard to remain composed, calm but play at a lightening fast pace and Wenger will often to refer to the players needing to be calm and composed when facing a stubborn defence. That's why I think the players can often get stuck in that one tempo phase of just moving the ball slowly. I don't think it's intentional but when we haven't got the confidence to play at a quicker pace because we've had some wayward passes or heavy touches....you get what we saw in the first half. That's my theory on why we're not playing to our full potential.

I can accept if the way we prepare for games mentally and what we do in training has the squad misfiring but that's different to tactics. It's something you keep muddling up.

You also may need to stop listening to the brainless English pundits on MOTD and BT Sports. That lack of footballing brain bollocks and Theo being at his best when not thinking is utter nonsense. The scorpion kick goal Giroud scored came about through pure instinct and just reacting to how the ball arrived. Most strikers react that way hence why they call it a 'strikers instinct'.

---

It's pretty wild to create a point that was never made. Where did I say it was a tactic to misplace a pass?

I have said throughout that the tactic seems to be to keep the ball at all costs, even if it means forgoing the opportunity to threaten the opposition in any meaningful way. This is a strange thread now. The insistence the term 'tippy tappy' be dropped because, for whatever reason, people assume this is a reference to tika taka. The idea we can't play high tempo, flowing, attacking football even though we've seen we can. And apparently because we can't pass? And yet we've seen we can indeed pass. So the summary seems to be this 'build up play' is understandable because the team is basically incompetent. Poor Wenger. Season after season the players are letting him down.

Who are the key culprits with these heavy touches and poor passes? Why hasn't the manager got rid of them if they are constantly leading the team to 'lack little bit sharpness' and not move the ball quickly enough? Why does he keep playing them? Why does he buy them in the first place? Like a mechanic who puts all the wrong parts in an engine so it won't drive the car. Fucking parts! Useless. Let's order more of them and see if that fixes the problem.

Theo Walcott, for example. How long has he been here threatening to deliver a full season of football at a competent level? I can't blame Theo. In his shoes I'd probably sit there and take the cash also. So whose fault?

Why can't Xhaka pass now? Has he suddenly become a bad player? Could it not be the fucked up, disorganised tactics and the general lethargy in the team (which Wenger delights in, always telling the players how tired they are) that has thrown his game off a cliff? Who performs well when they are not forced to perform? Most of us are lazy in that respect. It's not a trait to be proud of or to boast about and you won't get along in the world by sitting on your arse. So this isn't a pass for the players. But it's a big, big question to Wenger. What the fuck is he doing about it? Isn't it his job to sort out these problems?

Why does Giroud only play 10, maybe 20 minutes of the 90?

Why do we only show up for the second half?

These aren't tactics, but when you add it all together and you get a misfiring turd of a team in terms of preparation, aggression, ambition, desire, limping around the pitch and then tell them to execute a set of instructions, what are you going to get? The very shit we see, week in, week out. The shit that just about keeps us within that top 4 placing because the club has just enough money to bring in just enough talent to rely on brief spells of individual effort to scrape a result out. This is a farce. The very opposite of what it should be.

So whether Wenger tells them to go out and plod along or not, everything he does contributes to the unbearable end result. When was the last time the players saw one of their own kicked up the arse and then sold if they didn't get their shit together? He didn't even sell Diaby when it was clear the guy would never play again.

So I'll concede one point. Even though we most certainly can play a high energy and progressive game (because we've seen it), the farcical way in which the manager operates is unlikely to see that occur on a regular basis. That doesn't make it any less irritating because I'd put money on a half decent manager being able to come in here and in no time flat have us taking advantage of the talent we have in this squad and playing a much more effective game that's actually worth watching.

But that's not going to happen either. Basically we're fucked for the foreseeable future.

:doh: God damn it! Forget it.

We just bought Xhaka! This is going nowhere fast. Something must be in the water.

What worries me most is the payers saying that they were surprised at Preston's commitment. They're not a non-league side, they are professional footballers in the Championship and at home in a cup tie against Premier League opposition, why wouldn't they be committed? We've seen over the last decade or so our team take the opposition for granted and been burned. Treat every game with the same respect and commitment ourselves and we might win more of these matches and more easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goonermerree

What worries me most is the payers saying that they were surprised at Preston's commitment. They're not a non-league side, they are professional footballers in the Championship and at home in a cup tie against Premier League opposition, why wouldn't they be committed? We've seen over the last decade or so our team take the opposition for granted and been burned. Treat every game with the same respect and commitment ourselves and we might win more of these matches and more easily.

---

The mentality throughout the camp has to be wrong. We've seen it from far too many teams. Even with experienced players we get the same lazy approach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

:doh: God damn it! Forget it.

We just bought Xhaka! This is going nowhere fast. Something must be in the water.

---

I guess your point must be so advanced and high brow that nobody else can comprehend it. And I guess it must be so elevated it negates the need to make a defence of any points raised against it. For example, "Why can't Xhaka pass any more?" Answer - We just bought him. Heavy.