Arsene's Perspective - Is this the main problem?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Wenger is no longer the big fish in a small pond. In fact, the pond is now bigger and so are the fish. The flaws we now see in Wenger has always been there. Think back to those awful Champions League days with the old guard. We never performed well on the world stage and it's part of the reason Henry never won the World Player Award. The problem with discipline has always been there, think back to Anelka and the problems he had with our Dutch players, having to sell off key players...it's always been there.

Man City and Chelsea have played their roles, but in opinion, Wenger is limited as a coach and was bound to get exposed which is why he has always avoided going to a big club. He's content at this level. After his spell in France he decided to go to Japan instead of going to larger club. Bayern Munich once wanted him the French National team wanted him and he decided to go to the J League! Why? He's not that confident and it's probably why he surrounds himself with players that need work and not that arrogant. He has to raise his game now. The league never had so many strong teams and coaches when we were winning.

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That's an interesting post. The last sentence is true but there's no doubt Wenger revolutionised the club with his training methods, fitness regime and knowledge of the worldwide game which meant he was able to bring in foreign players under the radar of other clubs. I've seen a lot of revisionism on here from some who, frustrated by the last few years, have claimed that what Wenger did back then wasn't that impressive. In the context of the way the game was at the time in this country, it was.
The problem is other clubs have caught up, he's lost that edge. Also the wages and transfer fees, fueled by billionaire sugar-daddies, have spiralled out of control right at a time when we were moving stadium which meant a certain belt tightening. And I think Wenger has been far too principled and while I agree that the money has got out of control in the modern game I think you have to play the game and join in. He's done well to keep us top 4 by building a young side, his methods have NOT been a complete failure. Where he's failed is to combine that with a few big buys which could have pushed us over the line and won us a few trophies. Frustrating. But he's not suddenly this bumbling idiot who doesn't have a clue what he's doing, we wouldn't have stayed top 4 were that so.

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Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

That's an interesting post. The last sentence is true but there's no doubt Wenger revolutionised the club with his training methods, fitness regime and knowledge of the worldwide game which meant he was able to bring in foreign players under the radar of other clubs. I've seen a lot of revisionism on here from some who, frustrated by the last few years, have claimed that what Wenger did back then wasn't that impressive. In the context of the way the game was at the time in this country, it was.
The problem is other clubs have caught up, he's lost that edge. Also the wages and transfer fees, fueled by billionaire sugar-daddies, have spiralled out of control right at a time when we were moving stadium which meant a certain belt tightening. And I think Wenger has been far too principled and while I agree that the money has got out of control in the modern game I think you have to play the game and join in. He's done well to keep us top 4 by building a young side, his methods have NOT been a complete failure. Where he's failed is to combine that with a few big buys which could have pushed us over the line and won us a few trophies. Frustrating. But he's not suddenly this bumbling idiot who doesn't have a clue what he's doing, we wouldn't have stayed top 4 were that so.

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Seconded.

Back during the early years, me and my mates used to have these conversations. They'd always watch Serie A and La Liga and when it came to the Prem they'd always say, the team we had were too good for this league and they weren't too impressed with is busting up teams like Charlton. They'd always come back and say 'do it in the Champions League'. It ain't easy to win the CL and that was always my defence, but right now, with better players and coaches in the league, Wenger and the team look average.

This isn't revisionism. Not from me. It's been an ongoing discussion. It goes as far back as Henry not winning the World Player of the Year award and why. When Henry kept saying 'we're not a big club' I knew what he was getting at. Others don't respect us and our players in the same way they do at Milan, Barca, Man U, Real.... The last few years have confirmed my fears.

If people are going to say La Liga is as bad as the Scottish league because of the two massive teams dominating, what the heck was the Premier League back then?

Regards the ECL;

The style of football we played then was quick, pacey counter attack. We got slowed down by other teams in Europe who were more comfortable and able to dictate the pace of the game. Back then, the champs league was about patient football. Not the explosive stuff we used to play.

Now, it's about pace and movement and power and practically everything it wasn't back then. Barca are the only team who play the patient continental game, and with added brilliance in Messi which gives a whole new dynamic to that style of play.

Wenger set out to build a team (IMO, btw) to suit the continental approach. His dream being to win the ECL. What has fucked him over, is the advancement by other teams, like Barca, and the money that has poured into the game.

Partly, he has been left behind, but it's partly bad luck that the styles of play adopted be the two different "generations" are the polar opposite. If you switched the two around in time....I actually think todays Arsenal would have walked the Champs league, and the invincibles would be doing a lot better in it now.

Only my opinion of course....

I don't believe it has anything to do with style or money. Liverpool managed to win the thing and that was Rafa's first season and Man U have won it twice. It has nothing to do with style of play because the Italians don't play like the Spanish, the French don't play like the Germans and so on. Porto, Leverkusen, Inter, Madrid, Barca, Milan, Liverpool, Man Utd....different teams, different styles, different leagues, money spent also varies so you can't say it's the rise of the super rich clubs or a certain style that is successful. It's just about the best team on the day. As seem in our team, we buckle when we're under pressure.

I think the ultimate plan (and still is in all likelihood) was to get a team that could do both, a team of gritty guys who could grind it out and use a bit of power and pace but with technical ability to pass it around when needed, stranded somewhere between the two which when it works is fucking deadly (like Barca and I'd even lob in the Chelsea and Man U performances, despite the lacklustre displays by both) and when it doesn't it looks worst than most other styles. The new batch of youngsters seems to be able to pull it off, or at least have the potential to, along with some of the others but I think we bit off a bit more than we could chew with trying it in the 'transition' period (haven't heard that one for a while) and ended up with a bit of a mish-mash.

Essentially, this entire team is a gigantic Diaby.

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Originally Posted by Darth Vela

Essentially, this entire team is a gigantic Diaby.

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:haha:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I don't believe it has anything to do with style or money. Liverpool managed to win the thing and that was Rafa's first season and Man U have won it twice. It has nothing to do with style of play because the Italians don't play like the Spanish, the French don't play like the Germans and so on. Porto, Leverkusen, Inter, Madrid, Barca, Milan, Liverpool, Man Utd....different teams, different styles, different leagues, money spent also varies so you can't say it's the rise of the super rich clubs or a certain style that is successful. It's just about the best team on the day. As seem in our team, we buckle when we're under pressure.

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Sorry, you misunderstood me.

On the money thing, I meant that it seems that investment in football has closed the gap on the power clubs (Juve, AC, Inter etc), whereby advancement in technique, investment in training and fitness etc has made the champs league something very different to six years ago.

As far as style goes, I think it's very important.

You mention Liverpool. one thing Rafa had in spades was the ability to change tactics to suit. Organised, drilled and work-hard players.

Mourinho is another example of that ability; Porto and Inter being a case in point.

Wenger does not adapt his sides, instead chosing one way of playing, and sticking to it rigidly. We don't adapt with the changes from game to game, or indeed from era to era.

That's just it. The ability to adapt and to be able to surprise your opponents. The one season that we actually did well in the Champions League is when we moved away from our 4-4-2 and stopped trying to dominate possession and just focus on solid defence and counter attacks in a 4-5-1 formation. It took everyone by surprise and we've never played that way again.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

That's just it. The ability to adapt and to be able to surprise your opponents. The one season that we actually did well in the Champions League is when we moved away from our 4-4-2 and stopped trying to dominate possession and just focus on solid defence and counter attacks in a 4-5-1 formation. It took everyone by surprise and we've never played that way again.

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:good:

Wenger does it now and again. Does something unexpected, tactically, and we end up getting a 1-0 win or something. I never understand why he doesn't do this more often. He can be a genius at times, but tactically, most of the time he resembles a spazzer.