Match Reaction v Villa (away).

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Originally Posted by GP

Matt Ryan did alright. Solid. Just what you want from a backup keeper.

Referees should all be killed.

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Whilst I agree that the state of refereeing in this country is the pits and they do genuinely seem to be very harsh on us, I don't think we should pin our lack of points on them. For instance we should have been 3 nil up at Wolves before the Luiz debacle.

We shouldn't have given away a soft goal at Villa early on, we created enough chances to get something out of the game.

We have been very wasteful in front of goal the past few games, that is more of an issue than the dodgy refereeing IMO.

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IBK, pretty much my thoughts too. We are still very much a work in progress. The reality of the situation is that we are very much a Top 10 side, but at the moment, no longer a Top 6 side.

Despite losing back to back games, some of the play has been very encouraging in both the Wolves and Villa games. We are looking more like a "team" now and seem to be slowly developing a style of play. Despite this, we do still lack quality pretty much all over the pitch and I think it's going to take a few more windows to address that. You could also argue that a more experienced high quality manager could address several of the shortcomings in this team, take for example Chelsea hiring Tuchel and him ironing out the weaknesses in Chelsea's team due to Lampard's lack of experience.

Our current league position is pretty much reflective of the level of this team, I do personally think we have drifted quality wise away from the traditional top 6 even though I feel we are good enough to give all of them a very competitive game with the exception of City.

Regarding the Europa league and a possible route into CL, honestly I don't think we are at the level to progress from a CL group assuming we make our way into it via winning the Europa League, to be honest I don't think we are good enough to win the Europa League given the teams left in it.

I wouldn't fancy us to beat any of these sides over 2 legs or a one-off in the Europa League, AC Milan, Spuds, Leicester, Ajax & Man United.

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Yep - 100% agree.

I suppose the only real question here is whether we persist with Arteta. The reality is that we should not be surprised about some of the mistakes he hs made - the principal one being his over-reliance on reputations and experience of some senior players, and alienation of younger ones. This is understandable to a degree for a manager who himself lacks experience and is relying on that of his players to help manage his team on the picth and the training ground. What is less so is his stubborn persistence with the likes of Willian when the overwhelming evidence is that he is simply not up to it and his signing was a huge mistake.

I always advocated keeping the manager at least to the end of the season. I still think that we should aim to persevere with Arteta - the Chelsea approach would IMO be a disaster for a club that has been through too much instability already, and we need to take the long view. Whether by accident or design, we are now a team with a far better profile when trying to build a platform for future sucess - even more so if Saliba can be re-integrated successfully, and unlike others I think that we are good to go with a half decent striker (remember we have Martinelli already); a MF (Odegard?) and a back up left back signed in the Summer.

Our January business was much more sensible than some of the previous transfer decisions under this regime, and has made me more confident going forwards.

But...we are now in another crucial stage of the season. IMO our recent revival will count for nothing if we go into another period where we drop more points than we gain, and our seeming improvement on the pitch must now be translated into fewer results than we have seen over the past week. European football seems unlikely next season, but we need to finish close to achieving this for even sesnible fans to feel confident about a future under Arteta.

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Originally Posted by selassie

Whilst I agree that the state of refereeing in this country is the pits and they do genuinely seem to be very harsh on us, I don't think we should pin our lack of points on them. For instance we should have been 3 nil up at Wolves before the Luiz debacle.

We shouldn't have given away a soft goal at Villa early on, we created enough chances to get something out of the game.

We have been very wasteful in front of goal the past few games, that is more of an issue than the dodgy refereeing IMO.

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Yep. I'd feel more comfortable focussing on ourselves rather than outside factors that we can't change.

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Originally Posted by IBK

Yep. I'd feel more comfortable focussing on ourselves rather than outside factors that we can't change.

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well i don't agree we can't change it - there's enough clear evidence now for the club's lawyers tp put together a case to clearly show the FA that we get rough treatment and they need to instruct refs to treat us like any other team - preferably spuds who get away with murder.

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Originally Posted by IBK

But...we are now in another crucial stage of the season. IMO our recent revival will count for nothing if we go into another period where we drop more points than we gain, and our seeming improvement on the pitch must now be translated into fewer results than we have seen over the past week. European football seems unlikely next season, but we need to finish close to achieving this for even sesnible fans to feel confident about a future under Arteta.

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I don’t see what’s going to change though. We’ll win a few, draw a few, lose a few. It’s the very definition of a mid table side, it’s the same pattern of form we’ve had for 2 years now. Just meandering along with no relevance to the teams we once considered our rivals.

At the end of last season if someone said we’d be past halfway through this and 9th or 10th (where even are we? I can’t bring myself to look at the table these days) and already lost 10 games we would have considered that a failure. If Arteta doesn’t get us into Europe it would be the first Arsenal team in 25 years to not qualify for Europe...but it would be ok if we showed improvement on the pitch? Without a correlation with results and the league table, what even is improvement?

Of course he should be judged at the end of the season but I don’t like this idea that this season can be written off as more transition. Last season fair enough but this was the year we spoke about last season, he’s brought in his own players, he’s had time to work with the squad but nothing has really changed so far...now you want to kick the can further down the road?

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Of course he should be judged at the end of the seaso

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What kind of crazy idea is that? :lol:



:coffee:

It’s the least a rookie deserves in fairness.

Not an old man past his best. :coffee:

You judge any game at its end.
You judge any season at its end.
:)

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I don’t see what’s going to change though. We’ll win a few, draw a few, lose a few. It’s the very definition of a mid table side, it’s the same pattern of form we’ve had for 2 years now. Just meandering along with no relevance to the teams we once considered our rivals.

At the end of last season if someone said we’d be past halfway through this and 9th or 10th (where even are we? I can’t bring myself to look at the table these days) and already lost 10 games we would have considered that a failure. If Arteta doesn’t get us into Europe it would be the first Arsenal team in 25 years to not qualify for Europe...but it would be ok if we showed improvement on the pitch? Without a correlation with results and the league table, what even is improvement?

Of course he should be judged at the end of the season but I don’t like this idea that this season can be written off as more transition. Last season fair enough but this was the year we spoke about last season, he’s brought in his own players, he’s had time to work with the squad but nothing has really changed so far...now you want to kick the can further down the road?

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I think that this is too simplistic a view. Firstly, it is not just about results when you are trying to re-build a team. It's about many things. Identity; age profile of players; style of play; communication; continuity and a framework for both playing and recruitmment to name just a few. I think that the best example of this in recent times is Klopp's Liverpool team. Klopp inheroted a team; instilled a styleof play and a clear approach to how he wanted to play the game; identified which players fitted this style; communicated his ideas effectively and instiulled belief in them and then together with the executive of the club embarked on process of recruitment and player sales that was incredibly effective because he knew precisely what was needed to get to wherehe wanted to go.

Yes - Liverpool never sunk to where we currently are under Klopp, but at the same time they never had to deal with the chronic instability that we have suffered since Wenger - the inevitable outcome of the end of that all-encompassing regime; the churn at exectutive level; the disastrous appoitnment of Sanheli; the sheer rudderlessness of our recruitment policy and the muddled thinking that left us as a club still wedded to the idea of top 4 football as a 'quick fix' while unable to compete with clubs able simply to buy sucess.

I think it is againstthis background that we need to judge where we have been for the past couple of years and where we need to get to. Emery was always a transition manager. he was appointed IMO with a view to trying to win the Eurpoa League and thereby get into the CL (and in fairness he almost did so). He also nearly achieved top 4 in his first season. But his lack of bottle; clear thinking and communication then broke us and he never got to grips with the mentality of the players. Arteta inherited a complete mess - and noone expected more than he delievered last season.

So we are really talking about this season and this season alone when it comes to evaluating Arteta so far. Pre Xmas he was a disaster, but even then it difficult to argue that he did not do something to address the woeful lack of defensive shape that was Emery's legacy. Since Xmas there have been some green shoots offensively too. There have been changes. It's taken Arteta more time to get there perhaps than a more experienced manager, and there have been some obvious mis-steps but if this is part of a general and sustained improvement that properly steadies us for a push to better things - yes I will take kicking the can down the road.

So for me its not just a question of looking at league position and saying nothing has changed for 2 years. Its a question of seeing this in context, properly considering the realistic alternatives and looking at the stability of the club - without which we will unlimately achieve nothing.

Whether Arteta really has turned a corner remains to be seen...

Fair enough. Totally understand the need for patience and to examine the context of what’s been going on. My position has always tended to ebb and flow with results but I feel like with Arteta it is the smallest of green shoots and even then I’m struggling to truly believe these shoots exist.

I feel like we’ve been in the wilderness for long enough now that another year doesn’t really matter anyway. We’ve spent like we’re still a CL club but the reality is we’re looking at 5 seasons now without CL football. So that is one mess that needs clearing up and I guess that’s underway by offloading the expensive deadwood.

I’ve always been a glass half empty guy and I guess it’s been difficult accepting such a drop off in standards.