Wenger must go end of the season

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

No - for me, it has been strikers that can score, year after year.

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Say what?

That was a point made about how often we have to delve deep into our reserves because somehow we end up with masses of injuries in one position.

Nothing about why we haven't won anything.

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Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz

perhaps but maureen would want a sizeable amount to bring his guys in. he won't be interested in picking up wengers pieces.

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I don't think he'd come to us unless he was offered at least 50-60M to spend and the destruction of our wage structure, I was just saying I think he'd be far more likely to get us some silverware if he was given Wenger's squad.

If only we could have Wenger in charge of bringing in players and another manager in charge of managing them, we'd walk everything imo. Never going to happen of course.

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Originally Posted by Fist of Lehmann

Say what?

That was a point made about how often we have to delve deep into our reserves because somehow we end up with masses of injuries in one position.

Nothing about why we haven't won anything.

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Sure. We do have that. But nevertheless, the inability to put the ball in the net is of far more significance. IMNSHO

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Originally Posted by Boss

I don't think he'd come to us unless he was offered at least 50-60M to spend and the destruction of our wage structure, I was just saying I think he'd be far more likely to get us some silverware if he was given Wenger's squad.

If only we could have Wenger in charge of bringing in players and another manager in charge of managing them, we'd walk everything imo. Never going to happen of course.

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If fixing the squad requires the destruction of our rigid wage structure, then so be it. If keeping a top player means we have to pay him lots and underperformers get less or told to fuck off, I can live with that.

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Originally Posted by Boss

As stated many times on here before, our lack of trophies in the last 6 years has nothing to do with money.

Mourinho would do a lot, lot more with Arsenal than Wenger has, but Mourinho may not have any kind of chance of being able to put together the squad Wenger has on the money he's done.

Ferguson and Mourinho would be able to win the league with our squad last year, of that I'm pretty sure. Whether would be able to with the one this is more difficult to predict, given the drop in quality but I think they'd at least be able to put in a decent challenge.

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Yes he do alot more pitch wise but board room wise things would still be the same unless he moaned about it. Its never going to happen really.

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

If fixing the squad requires the destruction of our rigid wage structure, then so be it. If keeping a top player means we have to pay him lots and underperformers get less or told to fuck off, I can live with that.

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Can PHW and his croonies though.

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

Sure. We do have that. But nevertheless, the inability to put the ball in the net is of far more significance. IMNSHO

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So...I make a point about how, in light of our injury record it's important to have a strong overall squad rather that a strong 11 and a weak 2nd 11...

...and you say...yes but, scoring goals! That's far more significant!

:unsure:

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

Can PHW and his croonies though.

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Are you implying that threads like these are totally academic and have no influence or similarity to the real world? :yikes:

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Originally Posted by Fist of Lehmann

So...I make a point about how, in light of our injury record it's important to have a strong overall squad rather that a strong 11 and a weak 2nd 11...

...and you say...yes but, scoring goals! That's far more significant!

:unsure:

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Are you suggesting that GW threads should be logical and stay on topic?

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

Yes he do alot more pitch wise but board room wise things would still be the same unless he moaned about it. Its never going to happen really.

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The board can't force Wenger to spend money. They've given him money when he's needed it.

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Originally Posted by Boss

The board can't force Wenger to spend money. They've given him money when he's needed it.

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Yes, the absolutely could force him to spend money if they wanted to because they're in charge. Maybe they don't see it as their place to do so, but that's a different thing. The fact is they can do what they want and have been doing what they want even though it has cost the club massively.

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

Are you suggesting that GW threads should be logical and stay on topic?

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"It's not a disaster, but it would be nice if they could" - PHW

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

Are you suggesting that GW threads should be logical and stay on topic?

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Theo is shit.

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Originally Posted by Boss

The board can't force Wenger to spend money. They've given him money when he's needed it.

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"Spend money and win stuff or don't and pick up your p45 " simple as that tbh, It was more of a case of did not want to force him.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Theo is shit.

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That's numberweng.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

"Spend money and win stuff or don't and pick up your p45 " simple as that tbh, It was more of a case of did not want to force him.

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"... and buy a striker who can score goals". ;)

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Originally Posted by Boss

The board can't force Wenger to spend money. They've given him money when he's needed it.

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He gave it back because spending money isn't always the answer and we had 10 players coming back that would be like new signings.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Yes, the absolutely could force him to spend money if they wanted to because they're in charge. Maybe they don't see it as their place to do so, but that's a different thing. The fact is they can do what they want and have been doing what they want even though it has cost the club massively.

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Problem here is that if you force a manager to spend when he doesn't want to you're effectively telling him how to do his job and I'm not sure Wenger would like that.

He's always been given free reign and they've always stated how great he is and how he is the man for the job and that they trust him 100%, a change of attitude would surely suggest to him they don't trust him anymore.

You can't just change something that's been happening for years by snapping your fingers, forcing him to spend would be questioning his judgment and ability to manage.

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Originally Posted by ItsMe

Problem here is that if you force a manager to spend when he doesn't want to you're effectively telling him how to do his job and I'm not sure Wenger would like that.

He's always been given free reign and they've always stated how great he is and how he is the man for the job and that they trust him 100%, a change of attitude would surely suggest to him they don't trust him anymore.

You can't just change something that's been happening for years by snapping your fingers, forcing him to spend would be questioning his judgment and ability to manage.

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who gives 2 shits if he would like that or not, what they say should go and if aw can't hack it then he should feck off, however they are happy for him not to spend because not one has come out and said otherwise.

Look at the russian in charge at chavs and tell me the owner has no say over what goes on at clubs.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

who gives 2 shits if he would like that, what they say should go and if aw can't hack it then he should feck off, however they are happy for him not to spend because not one has come out and said otherwise.

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Well they do for a start since they always say how much respect they have for him, that's part of the problem......he's been around too long and is too close to the board.

They're happy to make money no doubt about it, but he's just an extension of the board, you just have to listen to him talk to see that.

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Originally Posted by ItsMe

Well they do for a start since they always say how much respect they have for him, that's part of the problem......he's been around too long and is too close to the board.

They're happy to make money no doubt about it, but he's just an extension of the board, you just have to listen to him talk to see that.

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Maybe if someone reminded them that Wenger was brought in by Dein and is still a friend of his, then they would be jolted into action.

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

Maybe if someone reminded them that Wenger was brought in by Dein and is still a friend of his, then they would be jolted into action.

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Dein id like to hear his thoughts on things now and if he feels AW should go etc.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

who gives 2 shits if he would like that or not, what they say should go and if aw can't hack it then he should feck off, however they are happy for him not to spend because not one has come out and said otherwise.

Look at the russian in charge at chavs and tell me the owner has no say over what goes on at clubs.

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And look at the times he's rumoured to have interfered and see how that worked out. Shevchenko, Zhirkov, Torres?

You expect the board, who know nothing about football compared to a half decent manager to tell Wenger spend 20M or you're sacked? And you expect him to listen to them?

Behave.

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Originally Posted by Boss

And look at the times he's rumoured to have interfered and see how that worked out. Shevchenko, Zhirkov, Torres?

You expect the board, who know nothing about football compared to a half decent manager to tell Wenger spend 20M or you're sacked? And you expect him to listen to them?

Behave.

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Telling someome to spend a few bob and focing someone to sign players they don't want are too diffrent things. Im not saying the board should go all roman on wenger, but force a little pressure at least, instead of silly coments on how we don't need to spend, don't need top 4.

Why would they force pressure on him? They're very comfortable with what he's doing for them and likewise he's happy to work in an environment that goes hand in hand with his philosophy and outlook on the game.

His philosophy sucks a big bag of dicks.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Why would they force pressure on him? They're very comfortable with what he's doing for them and likewise he's happy to work in an environment that goes hand in hand with his philosophy and outlook on the game.

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Thts why i said they should be doing that.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

Thts why i said they should be doing that.

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Indeed, but I don't see a reason for them to. Basically everyone at the top of the club need to FOAD tbh.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Indeed, but I don't see a reason for them to. Basically everyone at the top of the club need to FOAD tbh.

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Yes yes yes

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Originally Posted by Boss

And look at the times he's rumoured to have interfered and see how that worked out. Shevchenko, Zhirkov, Torres?

You expect the board, who know nothing about football compared to a half decent manager to tell Wenger spend 20M or you're sacked? And you expect him to listen to them?

Behave.

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Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? And yet the board allocating money but a football manager refusing to spend it is every bit as ludicrous. What's going on here is a game. Wenger gets paid £6mill a year and a good chunk of that must be compensation for taking the heat off a gang of thieves.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Indeed, but I don't see a reason for them to. Basically everyone at the top of the club need to FOAD tbh.

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Or just die, because they'd have to fuck off by default in that case.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Or just die, because they'd have to fuck off by default in that case.

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That means nothing to these people. They still won't go.

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

I'm coming round to that thinking. Wenger is still a top manager and would be a success at other clubs. However, I think that the situation we have is now tired and will not be revitalised until the manager is replaced. What should have happened (and was promised) this summer does not seem to taking place - the fact we have not gone out at the start of this window to buy the striker/goalscorer we desparately need says it all, I think. There was a case for waiting during August to see how the Nasri/Cesc thing would pan out, but the results to the end of December made it clear that we need to get a finisher to assist RvP with the workload. That being the case, given we supposedly have the money, we should have bought a significant finisher in the first week and had that done and dusted.

I don't mind so much about the fullback situation - that we have 4 injured at once is unlucky and once they recover, we should be broadly OK. The lack of firepower up front which has been the case for years is what gets me. Bendtner, Chamakh and Walcott continue(d) to fail year after year but nothing is done to sling them out and try someone else. We need strikers with a natural confidence and that is not something you can do in training. I am coming to the conclusion that in terms of regular goalscoring, you've either got it or you haven't. And we need to buy a player - well, two would be better - who have got it. And the attacking midfielders are the same situation. Arshavin, Rosicy might have had it but they certainly show no sign of it now, so time to get rid and replace.

If people like 'arry can get players that are confident in front of goal, what the hell are we doing?

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I agree totally.

We have all seen managers, like players, go stale at clubs for reasons other than to do with their latent talent. Whatever AW's merits, and there are many, he no longer seems willing, or able, to take the decisions needed to get the most out of our resources (both financial and playing wise). Both his methods and his ideas certainly seem to have stagnated at AFC.

I think the situation is best summed up by asking whether, in 1996, a younger Wenger would have felt that the power and prestige of clubs like United and Liverpool was a bar to him achieving success at Arsenal? Of course not. And yet the current version likes nothing better than talking about being unable to compete with the likes of Citeh. Yes times have changed and Citeh and the Chavs have taken spending to a new level - but we are talking a mindset, a committment and an ambition here - all traits that seem to have ebbed away a bit from Wenger.

What concerns me most of all is that under Wenger there has, and continues to be, an errosion of expectation and belief around our club. Lose enough times to sub-standard opposition; make enough individual errors; go into game with no plan b, and continue to field struggling or below par players often enough and you lose the winning habit. This is what's happened to us. The opposite is what has happened at United, who can continue to challenge for the title with a team much less talented that they were in their pomp.

There is no guarantee whatsoever that a replacement would do any better, but it seems to me to be an extension of the lack of ambition that many Gooners are accusing the club of to refuse to make a managerial change simply because the alternative might not work out. How far should Wenger take us down the league before we deem the risk of a change to be acceptable?

In any event, setting aside for a moment the financial issues, once we finish outside the top four, and trophyless, is there really that much difference in terms of attracting sponsorship, players, supporters between, say 5th place and 10th? I'd say the likelihood of slipping even further down the league while a new manager finds his feet is fairly remote, given a) the calibre of players that a new manager would have to work with, and b) the fact that even the current owners and board will be motivated to attract someone with a decent reputation, if only to protect their investment. And lets not forget the size of pay packet that AW receives. It stands to reason that a similar sum would be made available to secure a talented successor.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

I think the situation is best summed up by asking whether, in 1996, a younger Wenger would have felt that the power and prestige of clubs like United and Liverpool was a bar to him achieving success at Arsenal? Of course not. And yet the current version likes nothing better than talking about being unable to compete with the likes of Citeh. Yes times have changed and Citeh and the Chavs have taken spending to a new level - but we are talking a mindset, a committment and an ambition here - all traits that seem to have ebbed away a bit from Wenger.

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Now despite being an Arsenal fan for over 40 years and all that implies, I will ask this. If Citeh and Chavs have reached such a height because they are prepared to spend over half a billion each on players, how come Harry Rednapp can go to Tottenham and have them motivated to where, at the moment, they are title challengers? And in that last sentence, there is a keyword - "motivated".

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

Now despite being an Arsenal fan for over 40 years and all that implies, I will ask this. If Citeh and Chavs have reached such a height because they are prepared to spend over half a billion each on players, how come Harry Rednapp can go to Tottenham and have them motivated to where, at the moment, they are title challengers? And in that last sentence, there is a keyword - "motivated".

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i'm not sure 3 years and one year 'challenging' for the title with 15 years is a fair comparison - fergie is a freak of nature, history tells you that 5-10 years max is the prime period for a manager to retain an edge at the same club.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

We have all seen managers, like players, go stale at clubs for reasons other than to do with their latent talent. Whatever AW's merits, and there are many, he no longer seems willing, or able, to take the decisions needed to get the most out of our resources (both financial and playing wise). Both his methods and his ideas certainly seem to have stagnated at AFC.

I think the situation is best summed up by asking whether, in 1996, a younger Wenger would have felt that the power and prestige of clubs like United and Liverpool was a bar to him achieving success at Arsenal? Of course not. And yet the current version likes nothing better than talking about being unable to compete with the likes of Citeh. Yes times have changed and Citeh and the Chavs have taken spending to a new level - but we are talking a mindset, a committment and an ambition here - all traits that seem to have ebbed away a bit from Wenger.

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I think it's reasonable to think Wenger had a chance of competing with Man Utd, Newcastle, Liverpool in '96 than competing with Man City now. When he came, he knew a lot of shit that other managers didn't. He knew all this Japanese dietary stuff, training methods and knew about all these French players that no-one had much idea of. He had that knowledge and he exploited it. Now that information has become far more transparent, the role of the manager is more towards motivating players. And maybe he's not good at that.

Fully agree with TEG's comment earlier. I firmly believe our squad was good enough to win the league last season (and the season before). Wenger can collect all the ingredients needed (well, players, anyway) but that's where it ends.

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Originally Posted by Syn

Fully agree with TEG's comment earlier. I firmly believe our squad was good enough to win the league last season (and the season before). Wenger can collect all the ingredients needed (well, players, anyway) but that's where it ends.

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i don't think it is as black and white as that, mainly because of the injuries.

i just don't get it, i really don't. every single season we lose big players for a long time and are not able to cope. the club were even proudly boasting about our new start of the art facilities based on american sports science and yet we are suffering again.

why? what on gods earth is the problem with the medical team - it makes such little sense considering wengers background and belief in precise preparation. this more than anything has ruined the past 3 seasons at least.

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Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz

i don't think it is as black and white as that, mainly because of the injuries.

i just don't get it, i really don't. every single season we lose big players for a long time and are not able to cope. the club were even proudly boasting about our new start of the art facilities based on american sports science and yet we are suffering again.

why? what on gods earth is the problem with the medical team - it makes such little sense considering wengers background and belief in precise preparation. this more than anything has ruined the past 3 seasons at least.

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Preaching to the choir. I'm been moaning my tits off about the no.1 problem at the club™ (injuries) for ages. It's always the main reason for our annual collapse. But I don't accept it as 'luck' any more because I think it's too persistent to be luck. We're doing something wrong. I am guessing there is not enough weight being put on it. Before every game Wenger says "we have x,y,z to come back which will make us stronger" but no-one ever asks "hang on, why are x,y,z always out? We are we always topping the injury table?". And it's possible that they have considered it but just haven't found a solution. Either way, enough time has passed and we can't wait forever for him to find a solution to it. So he has to be judged with injuries being his problem, not 'luck'.

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Originally Posted by Syn

I think it's reasonable to think Wenger had a chance of competing with Man Utd, Newcastle, Liverpool in '96 than competing with Man City now. When he came, he knew a lot of shit that other managers didn't. He knew all this Japanese dietary stuff, training methods and knew about all these French players that no-one had much idea of. He had that knowledge and he exploited it. Now that information has become far more transparent, the role of the manager is more towards motivating players. And maybe he's not good at that.

Fully agree with TEG's comment earlier. I firmly believe our squad was good enough to win the league last season (and the season before). Wenger can collect all the ingredients needed (well, players, anyway) but that's where it ends.

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Yeah - if Wenger was director of football with a motivating and tactical manager handling the team for matches, that would maybe do the trick.

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Originally Posted by MaxPeck

Now despite being an Arsenal fan for over 40 years and all that implies, I will ask this. If Citeh and Chavs have reached such a height because they are prepared to spend over half a billion each on players, how come Harry Rednapp can go to Tottenham and have them motivated to where, at the moment, they are title challengers? And in that last sentence, there is a keyword - "motivated".

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Harry has always been good with players tbf and imo had he been at UTD or a Chavs or with us before spuds he'd have probs won the league ages ago. Wenger is not and has never been a motivator that isthe diffrence and for those who are in doubt the games after the cc final last season will tell you so.

Problem with wenger as much as he wants to win things he seems to be more motivated to balance the books or do things this way the right way in his eyes. As much as i don't my him protecting his players with his "i did not see it" nonsense he needs to man up and let them too as well.

even fabregas last season behaved like a whinging spoilt brat who thought if he don't get his way he had the right to complain. Like the tractor boy comment. that comes down from the manager to the players.