:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I'm back in London now, term ended in time for the West Ham game. What'd you get up to? Standard Shambles/Minster/Betty's, or something innovative?
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:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I'm back in London now, term ended in time for the West Ham game. What'd you get up to? Standard Shambles/Minster/Betty's, or something innovative?
I'd been there before and done the Minster so while we popped in we didn't pay to do the tour. And I'd done the train museum before. But yeah, standard stuff really. Walked along the wall, wandered around, did a boat trip, Jorvik thingy and that Chocolate museum. Nice place.Quote:
Originally Posted by WMUG
So Klopp just announced that he's leaving Dortmund this summer and that he's not planning on taking a "sabbatical either".
How does this change things for you with regards to Wenger if at all?
50/50 for me. I genuinely think we're on the precipice of doing something amazing so risking a manager change at this late stage could seriously jeopardise that however the opportunity to hire a top coach (one bad season doesn't change that) like Klopp doesn't come around that often, especially one with the longevity and who shares similar attributes to Wenger in terms of long-term approach to building a club.
I would absolutely hate to see Klopp at Pool or Citeh .... his style and his philosophy seems tailor made for us.
The pattern is so obvious regarding Wenger. Great start/ending, fuck up elsewhere, so we'll keep chugging along as we are with him in charge. How many seasons do we go, "Well next year will be better" only for it to repeat? The hesitation will always be finding a manager deemed 'secure' enough to carry on where Wenger has left off and Klopp fits the bill better than anyone.
But, it won't happen. The board will stick with Wenger for as long as he decides and the stubborn old fool will continue in ever decreasing circles for the foreseeable future...
We're on our best run since The Invincibles - this isn't just another 'decent run'.
We've finally got a squad that looks like it can compete.
We've won a few of the 'must win' games that we 'always' lose.
We've won a trophy and really should get back to the final, we have a decent chance of winning two major trophies in two seasons.
And you really think we're just 'chugging along' and there are no signs we're heading in the right direction?
Going by our points comparison, no. We're just doing the same as usual. Meaningless win runs that leave us between 2 and 4th offer no comparison to the Invincibles at all. That is just yet another pointless media stat thrown out there.
We've had a squad that can compete a few times. The problem is the manager cannot 'manage' them well enough to get the maximum out of the group. With the money spent, two FA Cups is not enough to justify the expense of this squad and is vastly short of what they should be pushing for. Europe remains a joke - and after 15 or so attempts it's fair to say that is never changing.
Wenger has to go at some point. The club needs to be forward thinking about that change and take on a young manager who could potentially remain in place just as long as Wenger, deliver what they need financially and what the fans desire too. But of course it won't happen. Just fanciful thinking on my part.
The familiarity to our "title collapses" is definitely a valid point ...... I mean as you say it's either a great start or ending. However, I think it'd be remiss to not acknowledge or appreciate that our improved financial muscle is starting to have an effect. We've improved our squad to such an extent now where really this sort of thing should be a thing of the past. You can point to this season, but there were certainly factors which played a part towards our shit start: the WC, bedding in so many new players, a lack of CB/DM cover (rectified and will hopefully rectify) ........ I'm not sure any manager could have dealt with them.
I'll put my two cents out there: I don't actually think Klopp is a better manager than Wenger. He's got plenty of issues and problems himself however with the Bundesliga being less competitive and "hard" than the PL, he can often get away with them (not this season though). However he's a very good and talented manager who could get better and the opportunity to replace Wenger with a talented manager who shares very similar characteristics doesn't come around that often so I'd also be annoyed if we let it go to waste. Especially if he thens ends up at a Liverpool or Utd and stays there for a decade or two.
It's 50/50 for me but I'm leaning towards Wenger staying atm.
Not over 10 years, I agree. I think we can all agree that over the last 10 years Wenger hasn't done well enough with the resources at his disposal. That said, we did have the triple whammy of the stadium debt, the billionaire cheats and poor commercial deals - secured to ensure the stadium repayments and good at the time, but we tied ourselves in for too long and lost out longer term. Easy to have 20:20 hindsight about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kano
Now we have new commercial deals in place and the stadium debt is paid off, or getting there, Wenger has started spending more. The sorts of players we're signing - Cazorla, Ozil and Sanchez - is a level above the players we signed before that. If we win two cups in two years - having thought, especially after the Birmingham debacle, that under Wenger we'd never win another trophy - and get a similar number of points to what we got last year (which was the most since 2007/8) then IMO it would show we're on an upward curve. It didn't look like it early season, granted, but you judge a season at the end, not in the middle.
I don't think we've had a squad quite this good for a long time. And I see the result at Old Trafford as significant - it's the sort of game which we 'always' lose and 'never' show up in. Well this time we did show up, we were superb, and we got the result. And we thumped Liverpool recently in a game which, had we lost, they'd have been right on our tail. Again, the sort of game we 'always' lose.
FY said earlier in this thread that he saw the Chelsea game as significant. I see that as a bore draw - Mourinho will come and park the bus, come for a draw and probably get one. If we could win that though then, although it would be all for naught, it would be another little monkey off our back in terms of beating a Mourinho side.
Wenger does need to go at some point, but is that point when we're finally building up a bit of momentum?
None of that touches on Wenger's glaring tactical deficiencies which are the main reason we haven't competed more effectively with the resources we've had, depleted or otherwise. Wenger's mentality isn't mentioned either. He's become way too cautious to ever challenge for the top again. It's not impossible we could do a Liverpool and snag a title (almost) on the back of everyone else being shit. But we'd have no chance of retaining it. There's a difference between a Liverpool or Utd dynasty and an up and down cash machine like the gypos. We were somewhere in-between during Wenger's good years. His philosophy was better then. He was more expansive in his style. Now he brings on Flamini and sets up to scrap it out with Burnley because he values the 3 points more than the football. It doesn't suit him and it hasn't worked in ten years of trying.
I agree Letters. It'd be a shame to jeopardise or risk all the work we've put in to get to this point by bringing in a new guy at this stage.
The thing that worries me about Klopp I have to admit is that he doesn't have a good track record of building successive great teams like say a Wenger, Ancelotti or SAF have. He built one amazing team at Dortmund (which got to the CL final and won the league a couple of times) but after that was dismantled he's struggled as evidenced by how awful they've been this year. And let's not forget he prior to that he relegated Mainz and couldn't get them promoted back the following season.
Plus for all the talk of Wenger's lack of flexibility in terms of adapting the team's playing style I'd actually argue that Klopp's a lot worse at that. He seems to have only one setting (high pressing transition football) which when it get's figured out, he doesn't have a counter for it. It also results in players getting over stretched and subsequently picking up a lot of injuries.
Granted like I said in my previous post he's extremely talented but don't be fooled; going with Klopp would be a massive risk; there's the potential for it to fail spectacularly as well.
I surprised people still have the breath to talk about this topic. It's the same every season, good start/poor finish or vice versa. The perception is skewed and the reality is we're no closer to winning the league again and this time don't have the excuse of not having sufficient money to spend.
Flopped hard in Europe once more but sit pretty in the top 4 ready to go again for next season. Granted probably making the cup final again and chalking up a couple of rare wins is great but I'm not going to believe we'll challenge seriously for the league again under Wenger until I see it.
Having said all that, I love the bloke and I just don't care anymore about wanting him to stay or go. He'll go when he's had enough, I just hope he leaves with his legacy stronger than ever.
Jeremy Wilson who's one of those journalists with good sources at the club (alongside Ornstein, John Cross and Amy Lawrence) says that we're not interested at all in Klopp.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...gen-Klopp.html
Oh well, that's that then. :getcoat:Quote:
Arsenal rule out move for Jurgen Klopp
Arsene Wenger secure in post at Emirates Stadium despite German coach being poised to quit Borussia Dortmund at the end of the season
Arsenal remain certain that Arsene Wenger will lead them forward for at least the remaining two years of his contract, despite news of Jurgen Klopp’s expected departure from Borussia Dortmund.
With Arsenal currently second in the Premier League and Wenger aiming to set a modern-day record this season of six FA Cup wins, there is considerable optimism at the Emirates Stadium about the future.
Klopp has been seen by some as a potential successor to Wenger but the timing of his reported departure from Dortmund means that there is no prospect of Arsenal now making any move for his services.
Arsenal have given thought to how they would deal with the succession to Wenger but that is only in their long-term planning and they believe that their manager is as committed, focused and driven as ever.They also believe that the team has progressed considerably over the past two years and are ready to back him this summer with a transfer budget of around £50 million.
A holding midfielder, defender and possibly a goalkeeper will be the focus for Arsenal’s scouting department but Wenger has been a long-time admirer of Dortmund forward Marco Reus and the departure of Klopp would also make his future less clear.
Let's hope Klopp doesn't end up at City.
Damn. That was quick and it tells us a lot. Then again it could be a journo taking a punt.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico
Even so, if all the tight bastards are giving him is £50mill after 10 years of waiting and selling our best players then basically - fuck them. Greedy bastards. So much for the improved sponsorship deals.
Does that mean ticket prices will be going down? Or they'll stick with a kit for more than one season? Does it mean pigs will be flying?
£50m would probably only enable us to stand still rather than improve with united, citeh, the spuds and others bound to spend a lot and perhaps more than that
given wengers ample time and resources he's been given anything less than 2nd and I think he should go.
Players still prefer to go to Man U, Chelsea etc. Will believe in Wenger if he can out think Chelsea and Man U tactically in forthcoming fixtures.
Coming 3rd, 2nd or 4th is all the same. Letters flops about depending on our current trajectory. 3 months ago we were almost universal that he should leave. Now after a good run where we are literally 10 points behind Chelsea, out of the CL again. We are hearing how it might be best to stick with a 65 year old, who makes the same mistakes each season. If serendipity hadn't crocked Arteta and given Coquelin a chance, we would still have an immobile DM who can't tackle marshaling our midfield. Wenger will only give a superior player a chance after the inferior player is crocked. We have beaten City, who we can see are the equivalent of a neutered racehorse. But can we beat United and Chelsea and confirm that next season we will be in the running. The reality is that we have to plan for a future without Wenger. Question is do we have to put up with another 5 seasons of no CL trophy and no PL winning just because we are risk averse. No manager guarantees success. Wenger however only guarantees 4th place or slightly better. If we get humbled by either rubbish Chelsea or dogshit United, Letters will be back reluctantly agreeing that Wenger should go, only if the son of God can be tempted to replace him. Anyone else would be a risk.
2nd isn't the same, that wouldn't be fair to say that. We haven't finished second for 10 years after all. :lol:
Still unsure where I stand on this now, it's going to be the old goat's last contract anyway.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
We are still nowhere near challenging for the PL trophy. Just because other teams are dogshite does not take away the fact that the season as a whole has been dismal (as usual). I would still give Wenger more time IF he beats Chelsea and wins the FA Cup... the former is more important than winning the FA Cup. You beat a Mourinho team that is fighting for the title and I can give Wenger some credit. Other than that, this little 8 game winning run does nothing for me. We have similar runs almost every season. :rolleyes:
Geez, I don't agree with Letters, but he is entitled to his opinion.
I am however amazed how much he and some others can watch what pretty much mirrors the pattern of previous years and still cling on to the hope that it will be somehow different next season.
I'm not convinced Klopp is the answer, but I'd love to take a punt on him regardless - if only for the prospect of something different.
I've explained till I'm blue in the face why I don't think this run just mirrors the pattern of previous years.
I've not seen anyone actually respond sensibly to those points.
...hang on, are you calling the champions elect 'rubbish'? :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
As for Utd, we've already beaten them away, in one of those games we 'always' lose in, 'always' choke in. One of only 3 home games they've lost all season by the way, so hardly 'dogshit'
If we get thumped in either game then it will change my opinion, just as this current run has changed my opinion. I have explained why, and the differences I see between this and other good runs. FY predicted people would waver if we went on a decent run, but firstly I don't think you can dismiss 17 wins out of 20 as just another decent run, and secondly why shouldn't people reassess their opinions in the light of new events? If I don't rate a certain player and the player starts to consistently perform better then I should reassess my opinion, not frantically move goalposts and stubbornly declare myself right all along.
No. No we don't :doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
Do we need to spend more than 50 million in the summer anyway?
Maybe not, but there should be more than that available to him if he needs it. Basically this will be half or a third of what the mancs clubs and the chavs will have available. Wages as well as fees remember. It doesn't mean we can't attract decent players, but it does mean we're still out of the hunt for the very best and will have to queue behind the usual lot who will get first pick. Mind you, they aren't exactly geniuses in the scouting shops at our rivals. Di Maria, Falcao, Mangala, etc when they could have had Alexis? LOL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
When we played them they were 5 points behind Chelsea with a game in hand. We were the game in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Their league home results to that point were W7 D2 L1. And of their previous 12 league games they'd won 9 and drawn 3.
But yeah, let's dismiss the win up there if it suits your agenda.
I want to pick FY up again on his 'little 8 game winning run'. That 'little' run is the best run anyone has put together this season. And it comes at the end of a bigger run of winning 17 out of 20 games in all competitions. A run which has seen us haul ourselves from 7th to 2nd in the table and get us to the FA Cup semi-final, beating Utd away on the way. To dismiss that as just another good run like we see every season is ridiculous.
Plenty have responded sensibly. A good run is just a good run. It’s that simple. We’re performing well and it’s enjoyable to watch but we have no pressure on us. The statistics will vary from season to season but we’ve always mustered up a good run from somewhere after being written off in the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Had we lost to Utd away or Liverpool at home (or any game recently, actually) then without a doubt people on here would have been saying we bottled it. Those two games in particular were the exact type of games that people on here say we 'always' lose or bottle it in. We win those games and it's "Meh, we have no pressure on us".
That is exactly the goalpost shifting I mentioned above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
:shrug:
We haven't been on a run this good since The Invincibles. No-one else has been on a run this good this year at all.
When was the last time we won 17 out of 20 in all competitions?
When was the last time we beat Utd away in a big game when it really mattered?
I think your overly concerned about GW perception and assume the posters that hold that view speak for everyone on the board. I’ve said this before, but we shouldn’t be looking at wins against big rivals as some sort of indicator of progress. That’s what Spurs fan do all the time when trying to convince themselves the balance of power is changing. Anyone that holds the Utd and Liverpool games up as significant landmarks are just as misguided as yourself with this winning streak stat. We’ve had seasons where we’ve beaten some really good teams and we’ve had seasons where we’ve gone on aa really good run. I’m not sure about 17 wins out of 20, but it’s irrelevant because when it comes to the crunch and we’re leading in the title race, we have buckled under the pressure. Champs League knock out phase, we crumble. Until we overcome that I can’t read too much into one game or a good streak of wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Also, it’s been said before plenty of times, but I don’t know if we’d even hit this steak if it weren’t for injuries to Arteta, Flamini, Wilshire and Ramsey. That forced him to recall Coquelin whose been essential to this rival and also meant Cazorla and Ozil were back playing in their favoured position. I don’t like the fact that it’s taken injuries to force Wenger’s hand and play certain players in their favoured position and to their strength. The fact that we now have a bigger team can be a blessing and curse because he may not know his best team or who to pick. Fitness selected this current team and not the manager. That’s another question mark lingering for us next season. When we have a fully fit team, will Wenger know who to pick and where to play them.
I agree with a lot of your post, and I agree with this part to an extent - we went through a phase years ago when we weren't that good a side but we did raise it for the big games and often got good results in them but overall we weren't much good. But I do see that Utd game as significant because it was a cup quarter final. You can't sensibly say there's no pressure in that scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
We need to finish the job in the Cup. We really should win on Saturday, the Final is all on the day, especially if it's Liverpool, but we've shown we've got nothing to fear from them. If we do that (I don't care as much about 2nd place, it would be nice but I'd rather have a trophy) then two trophies in two years gives us some momentum.
Do Man Utd still strike fear in your heart? They’re just Man Utd in name. I wouldn’t hold them up as that team to beat these days. We should have put the whooping on them last season under Moyes. Hold that up as sign of improvement if you want, but I won’t because that result came not so long after us losing 3-1 to Monaco. I know if Wenger could swap the results for those ties, he’d do it in a heartbeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
You serious?! I (and other posters) have given you multiple examples of similar runs. At least, there are people with the decency to accept when they are wrong. You are just going on and on about something that has been proven by facts. What are you smoking or drinking or injecting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Unfortunately we've had one too many false dawns and some real disappointments. The only measure of success or progress left and acceptable to most fans, is delivering the title.
Thierry was asked that very question in the studio last weekend I think, "what constitutes a successful season for arsenal? would it be a successful season if arsenal finished in the top four and won the FA Cup?"
His answer: "no that would not be a success. success for arsenal should be winning the title, anything less is not good enough"
Sadly Wenget does not share that mentality, along with some fans. The FA Cup is nice and a good trophy to win, but there is no way anyone is going to convince me it's a major trophy. So could this team win the title, ....yes I think so .....with Wenger in charge? ....doubt that very much.
Anyway this particular debate is now redundant, coz he's not going anywhere until "he" decides to.
Good postQuote:
Originally Posted by Maestro
The reason I get so aggro with Letters is that his default position is:. Defend Wenger at all costs. There is always reason to be hopeful with him. We start each season with the means and tools to win all 4 comps we are in. By March we are usually out of all of them and still we keep saying, we can build on this. I do believe beating Chelsea is a major psychological hurdle for this team and especially for the manager, because in reality, Chelsea are not all that. Teams in the same league who do not suffer the same mental block as Wenger has against Mourinho, give Chelsea a harder game than we ever do. We could go there and lose 1-0 or 2-1, but I want to see a game between equals. Not one where we end up looking like talented mugs who have been duped by a lesser combatant. Same with United, we played them at home, were all over them and ended up looking like nitwits again. We beat them in the FA cup, they are on a run, so are we. If we meet it may be for 2nd place, so the pressure will be on again. We all know how well we usually cope with pressure, eg CL at home against Monaco. There is no point bigging up your competition, if you cant go toe to toe with them, then they really arent your competition. The FA cup is nice but is nothing really compared to the league or CL.
None of them have been similar. This is the best run since The Invincibles.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
None of them have been similar. This is the best run since The Invincibles, and the best run anyone has put together this season. And comes at the end of a run of 17 wins out of 20. Again, we haven't done anything close to that since The Invincibles. Long unbeaten runs with quite a few draws in really don't compare...unless it suits your agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
We haven't had a squad as strong as this since the Invincibles. It's the players, not the manager. They win despite him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The real worry is he'll nominate his replacement, somebody like Alan Greenspan or Eddie George's corpse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro
They never have. But is is a tough place to go, they've only lost at home 3 times all season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
It's somewhere we've repeatedly failed and it was a cup quarter final.
It's exactly the sort of game we've repeatedy failed in before but some people on here seem to define a high pressure game as one we lose, and bend over backwards to dismiss results like this.
Then what were they playing at early season? And who buys and trains the players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Wenger is responsible for results, good or bad.