It his nature and why I am certain he'll never be a manager that people remember fondly when he eventually leaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
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It his nature and why I am certain he'll never be a manager that people remember fondly when he eventually leaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
We are without a striker, and a defender I think we’d both agree has been our best defender this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
It’s possible had we not gone down to ten, we might have won. They bossed us first half, we don’t look at the races…we look tired. But I think given all those things…embarrassing sounds a little extreme
Embarrassing performances by both teams, if being honest. And the fans knew it. Nobody cared what the result of that match was.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Probably not unfair. For Liverpool it was a glorified friendlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I’m old enough to remember the dead games after we won the title. In 1998 Got the shit kicked out of us at Anfield, then lost at Villa Park. 2002, we had the 4-3 game at home to Everton where defending meant nothing to either side. Then we had 2004 where we only cared about not losing rather than winning
If we can draw the next game we'll go level with Everton at the top of the Draw League with 15. And it's entirely possibly we could draw with Southampton.
It's not beyond us.
2 draws with Liverpool so I think we can all agree we are basically as good as each other and should therefore share the title.
:trophy:
I don't know what we were doing in the first half, but we pulled it together at HT (and while i criticise Arteta a lot I will give him credit for whatever he said at HT) and it was much better after, if Merino hadn't been such a moron we might have wonQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Note, I did not say the performance was embarrassing (though it was nothing special either), but our intent, or should I say Arteta's intent, which if anyone was in doubt before the game was clearly revealed once we got back into it at 2-2 (before the red card).Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
We should change the name of the dog tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
https://www.arsenal.com/news/arteta-...nts-our-family
Btw i didn't notice but apparently Trossard was injured and ofc Merino's suspended so while Merino's not great if they're both out v Newcastle that's a problem...
Lose the dog :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I honestly assumed it was spelt 'Wyn' when they got it, I didn't think we'd be crass and ridiculous enough to call it 'Win' but ofc we had... :rolleyes:
No I know what you were saying. I just listed the factors as to why perhaps we held onto what we hadQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
What do you call a dog with no legsQuote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Don’t matter what you call it, it isn’t going to come to you
This season we’d be better off calling her Stalemate
Probably the mood I'm in today but I'm seeing a lot of negativity over yesterday's game/result. Is it really that surprising that we had a poor first half after Wednesday's heartbreak? I'm impressed, both by the application of our players who must be exhausted physically and mentally, and by Areteta's ability totally to switch things up at half time to come back from 0-2 down at Anfield - probably the hardest place to go in the league. As for Liverpool not really trying - if we think that team was not motivated in front of their fans to show that they are a better team than us - I think that's deluded.
We are not a shit team. We frustrate and are undercooked squad wise, but drawing a game in which we were dead and buried at half time (was fearing 4 or 5 against) shouldn't be dismissed, IMO. And once we were back on level terms, I'm not going to blame the manager for wanting to try to preserve what in the circumstances is a pretty precious point.
To say I want revenge on Newcastle is an understatement.
Yeah, it's REALLY surprising we had a shit first half. I mean that in a tongue-in-cheek way of course. They players have zero respect for the fans. That's the main issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
I'm assuming that They players have zero respect for the fans. isn't tongue in cheek. If so, I think you are wrong. Our shit first half on Sunday was not down to our players having contempt for our fans. Nor was the reaction in the second half based directly on wanting to please the fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
In terms of respect for fans, I imagine that being a professional football player is in some ways similar to the relationship between a professional and their clients. As a professional I depend on and respect my clients and want to produce results for them, but my principal motivation is doing a good job and making money to support my lifestyle/needs.
I believe that for footballers the position is broadly similar. The majority will respect fans as a key component in what they do. Some - who are also fans of the club they play for - will respect them more. But given what it takes to be a professional player - particularly at the top level - the motivation is likely to be internal - be the best you can be and achieve as much success as you can. Players will also be motivated by the need to please a good manager and protect their place in the team.
But poor performances can be caused by many factors - physical; mental; poor management; game state...that are unrelated to the relationship with fans. It's fanciful to suggest that they are motivated pricipally by a lack of respect for them.
agreedQuote:
Originally Posted by IBK
The other side of the coin is that fans' respect for players is diminishing. Yes we adulate those players who perform well, but we also scapegoat them when they don't perform to our expectations. And we increasingly tend to lack understanding or empathy when they are going through difficult times. Take Odegard this season for example. There has clearly been something wrong with him following a serious injury suffered in September. I suspect it's been repercussions of this or illness. But there have been plenty of Gooners suggesting that he is over/not up to it, or that he hasn't been trying or focussed. This for our captain, our player of the season for the 2 previous seasons and someone whose commitment to and effort for the club has never been in doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
We are a fickle lot, us fans. And while we demand 'respect' from our players we don't always prectice what we preach.
This is true but I also feel that footballers in general now are looked at in disdain given the money involved now in the sport. I think everyone has felt detached for a long time, I used to deify players but now I literally couldn’t give a shit. This isn’t what I grew up watching, it feels like something else even though it isn’t in essence.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
True. It's funny though - I feel more connected to our current lot than I have in many years, and its not really to do with performances. I think they are just generally quite likeable, and (contrary to NQ's original point) - really care about playing for our club and give their all for the manager. more than can be said for certain others over the past 20 years or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Excuse me! HOW much are they getting paid?Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
If you go to a 5 star hotel, are there shit stains on your sheets? And if you complain, do you expect to be called entitled by the staff?
I EXPECT 100% at ALL TIME as a bare minimum, given the cost of this hotel. If they want to surprise me by going the extra mile then I won't mind that at all. Like Bergkamp trapping a ball, the 6 star experience.
This lot thpugh, I'm the one washing urine off my face. How does that make me the guilty party?
And do you have security gurds protecting you from your clients, or do you have to face them one to one and justify your service and their value for money? Those players are NOTHING like you or me. Nothing at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
None of that addresses the point I made. Nowhere have I said that players are like you and me. Nor did I suggest that fans should not complain about performances when this is merited.
The discussion was about a certain hypocricy among some fans regarding the concept of respect. Personally I do not think this concept has much to do with how much players are paid. Expecting players to perform to a standard commensurate with their huge earnings is normal and justified, but I do not think that their earnings alone justify unfair scapegoating that is often based on a lack of knowledge or understanding as to why, for example, a previously committed player is out of form.
To use your hotel analogy - of course you would expect an expensive hotel to maintain exceptional standards. But noone reasonable would think that because they are paying top dollar they are entitled to trash their room or abuse hotel staff. And if a hotel manager or a waiter is not as congenial as they might be, but then you discover they have had a death in the family or are suffering a migrane most customers would be sympathetic, and certainly not call for them to be sacked.
I'm sure Bergkamp had the odd bad gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Also he refused to fly to games, which meant we were without him in some Champions League ties
Not very '100%' is it - we shoulda got rid of 'im right?
Love Bergkmap but his fear of flying was infuriating. I do wonder if he could have changed our fortunes during those early CL campaigns we had. Then again we struggled playing at Wembley so that didn’t help either.
Being afraid of flying is ridiculousQuote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
It’s the crashing at high speeds people should be afraid of :lol:
That whole "I ain't getting on no plane, fool" thing was ridiculous.
Looking back - how much are you getting paid, mate? Get on the fucking plane!
Or they could simply have taken the A-team approach amd secretly drugged him :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
“Dennis your latest random urine sample shows there’s a lot of chloroform in your system”Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I agree, old-style players could be real morons, these days they are more health conscious and some of them at least are generally better role models (not everyone obvs).Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
There are players at other clubs who remind me of old-style players - like Grealish and Maddison, a couple of jack-the-lad ****s
I too think most of our players are really into it and yes they earn silly money but it's just the market - they also put themselves through a lot (especially under Arteta) and someone likes Saka goes out there knowing he's going to get kicked every week.
The modern players I don't respect so much are those going to take the blood money in the Saudi League, especially those still young enough to play proper football, all this BS about 'they need to think of their families', seriously how much effing money do they need?
The life of the modern footballer (or in fact the sportsman in general) is pretty laborious it seems, constant training, constant monitoring of vital signs, nutritional intake etc. It has very little to do with personality, those who lack the discipline to maintain this regimen generally don’t make it full stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
It’s essentially about a cultural shift, the players from back in the 1980s might get pissed the night before and try and sweat the alcohol out of their system by wearing two jumpers when doing cross country runs, but it wasn’t that dissimilar in much of Europe up until the 90s.
If someone like Declan Rice was playing for us way back then he’d probably be having beans on toast as a pre match meal, just like Paul Merson would be on a high protein, low carb diet now.
I think certain players still get up to mischief outside, but because of social media and the fact that anyone with a phone can be a “citizen journalist” it tends to be more seldom.
The difference is the existence of the modern footballer seems to me to be more curated (and that’s because of the way they are remunerated for their skill and because of the money in the game itself)