Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

The team in my opinion will play better as long as Ramsey is kept out of the starting line up. Not that he is not a good player. He can be in the right set up as we have seen with Wales. The problem is he needs to play in the 10 role, where Ozil is who is much more effective in that role. He should be rotated in as when needed as the midfield should consist of any 2 of the trio of Xhaka, El Neny and Coq along with Cazorla who is the deep playmaker and links up with the front 3. Ramsey should watch Cazorla and long term he or Jack should vie for that role behind the front 3. Ramsey is awful on the right. Again it is a case of horses for courses. Cazorla can easily be dominated on the field. I recall a game against the Spuds last year where the Tottenham players had clearly identified Cazorla as a weak link and constantly ganged up and took possession off him. Wenger had to substitute him as he was so obviously being targeted. Ramsey is made of sterner stuff but is far less capable on the ball.

My fear for Ramsey just as with Jack is that they are far less a player than they should have been after all these years with us. Both peaked as players probably 4 years ago.

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Ramsey is not a 10 and doesn't even play it for Wales.

Wenger has not adapted to modern tactics. Other managers would get it. Not Arsene.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

You've asked me to explain how I define Box to Box and how I think Cazorla has played that role when playing in front of the back four with Coquelin, and you've asked me to explain why I don't see Ramsey in that role.

What has resulted from this is you don't agree with what I've said, that's your perogative. If your saying I'm not sure how you can interpret that is odd, because I've made the same point countless times.

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I think you've got box to box and how the ball transitions from defence to attack mixed up.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I think you've got box to box and how the ball transitions from defence to attack mixed up.

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Ah i see it wasn't sufficient for you not to agree with me, you have to try and imply ignorance and stupidity on my part...very well

The term box-to-box midfielder refers to central midfielders who have good abilities and are skilled at both defending and attacking.[5] These players can therefore track back to their own box to make tackles and block shots and also run to the opponents' box to try to score. A good box-to-box midfielder needs good passing, vision, control, stamina, tackling and marking in defence, and shooting and dribbling in attack.

That is a description of a box to box midfielder i have copied and pasted from wikipedia.

And that is the role i have consistently stated Cazorla played whilst being partnered with Francis Coquelin, he did bust a gut tracking back to win possession, make interceptions etc and he did run forward with the ball in order to instigate attacks. Is that his natural position?....No but to be fair i've not tried to argue that, i think it's another instance of being slightly shoe horned....and to be fair i did make the point that was one of a few roles he has assumed whilst playing central midfield rather than his primary role.

And looking at the attributes of a good Box to Box midfielder....and where i think Ramsey falls down....good passing, vision, control, tackling.....I would add that i think speed is essential as well in order for you to track back especially when you play for a team like Arsenal and we commit a lot of men forward.

I think he is reasonaby ok at dribbling and i also agreed with you that he has fairly good stamina.

Endurance and stamina are key attributes to play box to box. It's what defines that sort of player because all central midfield players need to be able to pass and track back to tackle. What defines Cazorla is his passing and he's more likely to set the counter attack off with pass and highly unlikely to be the guy that arrives late in the box to pop a shot off and score.

I'd also argue the term box to box refers more so to the style and type of player and not a function in the team. The reason why Cesc Fabregas isn't a box to box player is because he hasn't got the stamina and endurance to get up and down the pitch and to be equally as effective on defence as he is on attack. Also, the physical presence of a player is what defines them as a box to box player. Santi just isn't that.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Endurance and stamina are key attributes to play box to box. It's what defines that sort of player because all central midfield players need to be able to pass and track back to tackle. What defines Cazorla is his passing and he's more likely to set the counter attack off with pass and highly unlikely to be the guy that arrives late in the box to pop a shot off and score.

I'd also argue the term box to box refers more so to the style and type of player and not a function in the team. The reason why Cesc Fabregas isn't a box to box player is because he hasn't got the stamina and endurance to get up and down the pitch and to be equally as effective on defence as he is on attack. Also, the physical presence of a player is what defines them as a box to box player. Santi just isn't that.

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But that's your definition, i think it's a role that a player plays within a team....as the thing i copy and paste states it's whether someone has all the attributes listed as to whether they are good at the role or not, i think pace, tackling and passing ability are key skills to a good box to box midfielder and i think Ramsey lacks those attributes

If you are saying Cazorla lacks the overall physicality to make a top box to box midfielder then i would probably agree with you, but i contend he was played in the role and he showed good acceleration to run back to win tackles and was good enough on the ball as well as at passing for me, to make me feel confident in him playing that role than Aaron Ramsey.

I think a true Box to Box midfielder would be someone like Patrick Vieira who had both the physical and technical attributes, he was an important cog in winning the ball deep and using his physical power to run with the ball and had a good ability to pick out players with a pass.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Endurance and stamina are key attributes to play box to box. It's what defines that sort of player because all central midfield players need to be able to pass and track back to tackle. What defines Cazorla is his passing and he's more likely to set the counter attack off with pass and highly unlikely to be the guy that arrives late in the box to pop a shot off and score.

I'd also argue the term box to box refers more so to the style and type of player and not a function in the team. The reason why Cesc Fabregas isn't a box to box player is because he hasn't got the stamina and endurance to get up and down the pitch and to be equally as effective on defence as he is on attack. Also, the physical presence of a player is what defines them as a box to box player. Santi just isn't that.

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Its the eternal question I guess. He definitely isnt a right winger which is where Wenger generally shoehorns him in, So where does he fit. Somewhere in midfield except hes not a DM.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Its the eternal question I guess. He definitely isnt a right winger which is where Wenger generally shoehorns him in, So where does he fit. Somewhere in midfield except hes not a DM.

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or maybe just maybe we could accept he's not good enough for Arsenal

But that would be heresy because he played well for one season, and played well in the Euros

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

or maybe just maybe we could accept he's not good enough for Arsenal

But that would be heresy because he played well for one season, and played well in the Euros

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My bad. That was in response to Mastermind over where to play Ramsey. But yes. He needs to be out of the team. There is no place for him except as understudy to Cazorla

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

My bad. That was in response to Mastermind over where to play Ramsey. But yes. He needs to be out of the team. There is no place for him except as understudy to Cazorla

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Ah i wouldn't play Cazorla either, well not week in, week out.....and i would rotate where he plays as well so sometimes he is an understudy for Ozil as well as playing deeper

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

But that's your definition, i think it's a role that a player plays within a team....as the thing i copy and paste states it's whether someone has all the attributes listed as to whether they are good at the role or not, i think pace, tackling and passing ability are key skills to a good box to box midfielder and i think Ramsey lacks those attributes

If you are saying Cazorla lacks the overall physicality to make a top box to box midfielder then i would probably agree with you, but i contend he was played in the role and he showed good acceleration to run back to win tackles and was good enough on the ball as well as at passing for me, to make me feel confident in him playing that role than Aaron Ramsey.

I think a true Box to Box midfielder would be someone like Patrick Vieira who had both the physical and technical attributes, he was an important cog in winning the ball deep and using his physical power to run with the ball and had a good ability to pick out players with a pass.

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Tackling and passing are key attributes to all the central midfield positions.Tracking back is a requirement for all midfield positions. Don't let the laziness we've seen from previous players like Denilson fool you. It's like saying a striker must score to be a striker. That's obvious. But for someone to be a 'clinical' striker or a 'fox in the box' that speaks more of the type of player they are. Same applies midfielders that are described as box to box types.

Besides defending, a box to box player should have the energy to burst forward and get into shooting/goal scoring positions. That's not Cazorla. Energy levels and endurance are key to the position hence the term box to box. Someone constantly jogging and working the midfield at both ends of the pitch. Not just short sprints to get back or forward. Anyone can do that. That doesn't make them box to box neither does a tackle or passing ability.