Ozil - Do we need him?

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

There are two realistic possibilities and both of them are the fault of one man.

1. Wenger has changed Ozil's game, very much for the worse.
2. Ozil has realised you don't need to turn up or make an effort to get into the first team at Arsenal. It's not actually true he doesn't turn up or make an effort, that's just a media narrative that started almost the day he arrived with the stupid #stealingaliving tag that somehow has never been applied to Raheem Sterling, for example (and you won't find a more worthy candidate in football). Ozil runs more yards a game than most, makes more passes a game than most and gets involved more than most. But his effectiveness has been badly blunted this season and the question is why.

For me the answer is very, very obvious.

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There's a third option. That Ozil can only really deliver with the right players around him, and can't function effectively without smart players backing him up. Hence his persistent no-shows in the big games.

Not his fault, I realise (there's only so much you can do with Theo running into blind alleys and giroud doing his lamppost routine) but it perhaps suggests he wasn't the priority when we had £40-odd million burning a hole in our pockets and a gaping chasm in our midfield.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Not quite sure where all this dribbling business has come from. But are we now saying we don't need Ozil because he doesn't dribble enough? I'm just trying to keep track of your argument. One minute we hear Ozil doesn't turn up. Then we hear he's stealing a living. Now the problem is he doesn't dribble. Which is fine, because if that's the case I'm quickly going to say absolutely no, we shouldn't get rid of Ozil because he's not dribbling the ball enough. He does plenty of other things that we can't afford to be without right now, such as actually being able to keep possession of a football which is a rare commodity in the squad right now.

As for Wenger and Alexis' and Ox's games, well Wenger has change them of course. Alexis had until recently been moved to the striker role, and should still be there, and Ox had recently been moved into a central role. These things have worked, which makes you wonder why Wenger dumped Alexis for Giroud and why Ramsey ever got the nod over Ox. Probably because Wenger is incompetent. And this remains my argument. Option 1. Wenger is a moron. His shitty ideas on how we should play means we aren't getting the best out of any of the players.

I'm sticking with that too because it's what all the evidence points to.

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This is exceptional. :lol: You talk on other threads about the 'modern player' lacking respect and slacking off but here with the clearest example of what Ozil would do for Madrid compared to his performances for us and you have nothing but excuses. Even turning to a Wenger old favourite about stats despite what your eyes tell you. It shouldn't be hard to work out why I like Alexis as a player but have a problem when someone as talented as Ozil isn't making use of his talent.

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Originally Posted by RomfordPele

There's a third option. That Ozil can only really deliver with the right players around him, and can't function effectively without smart players backing him up. Hence his persistent no-shows in the big games.

Not his fault, I realise (there's only so much you can do with Theo running into blind alleys and giroud doing his lamppost routine) but it perhaps suggests he wasn't the priority when we had £40-odd million burning a hole in our pockets and a gaping chasm in our midfield.

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I once thought that but how can Ozil's ability to dribble be effected by the players around him? It's not even a case of him not being all that successful at it, he's hardly making an attempt.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

This is exceptional. :lol: You talk on other threads about the 'modern player' lacking respect and slacking off but here with the clearest example of what Ozil would do for Madrid compared to his performances for us and you have nothing but excuses. Even turning to a Wenger old favourite about stats despite what your eyes tell you. It shouldn't be hard to work out why I like Alexis as a player but have a problem when someone as talented as Ozil isn't making use of his talent.

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Well you keep changing the subject, so the discussion meanders along with it. Look, it's no secret you have some sort of agenda that singles out Ozil. That's blatantly obvious. But the question is, do we need him? Yes of course we do. We have 2, perhaps 3 world class players. Ozil is one of them. On form, off form, whether he's played, whether he's dropped, all different issues. Do we need him? Simple answer, yes. Complex answer, yes. And even if we suddenly freed up 200 mill to buy more world class talent in, do we still need Ozil? Yes. Because we want all our players to be world class in an ideal world.

There's only one person in this thread trying to find every possible angle to make a case. Ain't me.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

:doh: This isn't a debate about how much ground he covers or general defensive work. It's a question of why he doesn't attempt to take on more players when he's probably one of the most gifted at dribbling in the squad.

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Sounding very Kellyanne Conway.

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Originally Posted by mastermind84

Sounding very Kellyanne Conway.

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:good:

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Well you keep changing the subject, so the discussion meanders along with it. Look, it's no secret you have some sort of agenda that singles out Ozil. That's blatantly obvious. But the question is, do we need him? Yes of course we do. We have 2, perhaps 3 world class players. Ozil is one of them. On form, off form, whether he's played, whether he's dropped, all different issues. Do we need him? Simple answer, yes. Complex answer, yes. And even if we suddenly freed up 200 mill to buy more world class talent in, do we still need Ozil? Yes. Because we want all our players to be world class in an ideal world.

There's only one person in this thread trying to find every possible angle to make a case. Ain't me.

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Are you slow? You're able to work out what's being said. Cut the crap.

Some agenda? Of course I have an agenda. I want all of our players toplay to the maximum of their potential. Maximum effort even if it's under a flawed manager. Is that not what you want?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Are you slow? You're able to work out what's being said. Cut the crap.

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What is it you need to hear? Agreement? I already said I don't agree with you. I said why I don't agree with you. And you haven't presented anything that encourages me to agree with you. My answer remains, yes, we need Ozil. I also stated I don't think he's a lazy player, because the numbers bear that out. I said he's a world class player, the best in the PL, and your video supports that opinion. I said he should be criticised if he's not playing to his maximum potential, but I also said every player suffers from not playing to their maximum potential. I gave the opinion that it's Wenger's fault the team isn't realising its potential. I stated, a while back, there are plenty of players we should look at before we start talking about getting rid of Ozil.

You show a video of Ozil setting the world on fire in a team stuffed with excellent players and managed by a competent person. Why do you feel Ozil should be playing the same way in a ramshackle mess of a system managed by an incompetent person? Nobody has been able to get our shitty system to work. We had Fabregas, RvC, Arshavin, Adebayor, a whole stack of talented players who tried to drag this team through to some sort of success and then gave up because it's futile. Maybe if you said it looks like Ozil has turfed it in I would agree. That's what I said myself in the last couple of match threads. Is it a good sign of character that his efforts have dropped? Nope. Is it time to sell him? Why? When the problem is the idiot who is constantly working against the whole team? Get rid of the idiot first and then reevaluate all the players, that's what I suggested. Seems like a sane position.

Who are you getting in if you chuck Ozil out? Somebody else who will try harder to overcome the handicap of Wenger? Who would that be? You said Fabregas would be a better option but in the end he wanted out? You yourself say you understand why RvC pissed off. So who will be the magic bullet that comes in and drives a transformation? I've often said even Messi wouldn't make a difference because the the task is just too big. The alternative is to get rid of players like Ozil and just let the quality of the squad ebb away. How does that help us?

No, whichever way I look at it I can't see any advantage to getting rid of Ozil. And you haven't given me anything even remotely convincing to change my view. Particularly this idea that Ozil has had 0/1 dribbles therefore is stealing a living.

The real issue here is we're flat track bullies. Our big players turn up against small opposition because that's all we can handle as a team. Wenger's tactics and planning are always shit but against a lesser opponent the individuals in our team can overcome and conquer. Carry the same handicap into the big games against the big opponents and the mountain is too tall to climb, especially while pushing a rock up it.

Wenger's got to go, not Ozil.

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You show a video of Ozil setting the world on fire in a team stuffed with excellent players and managed by a competent person. Why do you feel Ozil should be playing the same way in a ramshackle mess of a system managed by an incompetent person? Nobody has been able to get our shitty system to work. We had Fabregas, RvC, Arshavin, Adebayor, a whole stack of talented players who tried to drag this team through to some sort of success and then gave up because it's futile.

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That's not true. The players you mentioned couldn't win more because of the shitty system but they were still able to show their qualities. Their maximum wasn't enough to compensate for a poor manager but poor management couldn't blunt their natural ability. Cesc was still able to pass and score wherever he went and the same goes for RVP. The core of what they were hadn't changed. Look at their videos for Man Utd or Chelsea and the same hallmarks they show there you can see when they were here at Arsenal. With Ozil, he looks a different player to what he was at Madrid. He's not taking as many risks and it's safety first.

We'll agree to disagree on this one. He hasn't shown his full potential at Arsenal and I think we'd be mugs to bend over backwards to try and keep him. I still want Wenger out. Don't confuse the issue. But if you're going to reference modern players showing disrespect, I think Ozil is up there with the Chelsea and City players did last season if he's not putting his all into the game just because our manager is a soft touch.