Match Reaction - Farmer Giles and the Gang 1-1 Arsenal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

Whatever you think about Chelsea and City their owners prioritise football and success first and then worked on the assumption that profitability would follow due to increased popularity around the world.

---

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

---

Recent times suggest otherwise. Anyways having fun wasn't the priority of Abramovich - 'respectability' and profile was - not to mention making him too high a profile target for a Russian assassin. As for Abu Dhabi - it was a hard-nosed investment decision to sink oil money into a pretty much gilt-edged investment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

---

Yes and no. They definitely care about money and return in the long run. They are Arab. Money is in their blood. It also works as the perfect investment point that allows the owner - UAE prime minister - to get closer to the UK government and buddy up the two countries even further.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

I think the reason why Chelsea and City owners have had no option but to concentrate on success primarily before making money is because of the lack of modern prestige associated with the clubs. They both needed lifting out of the duldrums and a new history created for them, rather than relying on trophies won fifty years and players only popular in the domestic game.

Whereas for Arsenal, we already had a worldwide rep, making us perfect fodder for a couple of billionaires to come along, invest nothing and sit back to collect far sooner than the oil barons will be able to.

---

...and had is the important word here. It may be a side-effect of the massive investment elsewhere, but we are kidding ourselves if our fading star sees our reputation anything like it once was. Years ago on here I wondered whether we might end up something like the mighty Ajax - and I don't think its such a stupid question to ask.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bumble

Didn't Citeh make a profit in the last financial year, so doing things the "right" way.

---

Even if they did, I don't think they deserve much credit for that having previously spent half a billion quid to buy a few trophies.
Agree about our wage bill, we have wasted far too much money on average players.
It's too simplistic to say "Its not all about money though otherwise Citeh or Chelsea would win every game", if that were so you'd never get a cup shock, you'd never see us losing to West Brom or drawing with Norwich. Football isn't as simple as that but over a season if you've bought a squad with a lot of top quality players, outbid rivals so they can't get stronger and have a squad good enough to withstand an even Arsenalesque injury list, you have a massive advantage.
Yes, Fergie managed to best both of them but he was the GOAT, IMO.
I do agree we should have won more in the last decade but we've made some improvement in the last couple of years. I think we're now in a position to challenge. If injuries or the lack of top striker stop us properly competing this year then Wenger should be sacked. We're in the mix so far though, despite our wobbles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...erious-6935246

Reports saying the injury isn't that bad.

Maybe Wenger has asked Sanchez how he feels again. ;)

---

:lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

Agree with all that. It might be a shame that football has become so cynical, but like everything else - and most big sport - these days success overrides doing the right thing every time, and Wenger is swimming against the tide.

One question I have asked myself a lot recently is which top European side would employ Wenger as manager - and I'm not sure any would - at least those clubs with any ambition. If the question was which venture capitalist would employ Wenger - then I think he may truly be the most sought after manager on earth.

---

Football has changed a lot,but you have to move with the times and adapt.

I think he'd find another job, as some people still seem to have to rose-tinted view of him outside Arsenal, let's not forget Benitez is now at Real and his CV is hardly glowing these days, I'm not sure he would deserve one at a top club however as I just don't think he can deliver at the top level anymore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

...and had is the important word here. It may be a side-effect of the massive investment elsewhere, but we are kidding ourselves if our fading star sees our reputation anything like it once was. Years ago on here I wondered whether we might end up something like the mighty Ajax - and I don't think its such a stupid question to ask.

---

I'm actually convinced it is the other way. In this modern, consumerist world, marketing is king, and our marketing is far more aggressive around the world than it ever has been. We wouldn't be marked down as one of the richest in the world if our merchandise, sales and marketing teams weren't being successful. We had the 5/6th highest shirt sales a couple of years back I believe. What helps us far more than someone like Ajax is the marketing of the PL too, set alongside our own efforts it ensures we can remain an attractive prospect and retain the focus on our recent and more historic success. All horrible, disgusting words of course, as marketing deserves no place in our world, let alone football but it is what it is now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Bull. Shit.
They didn't care about profit in the long term, they were just having fun because they could.
Rich people don't buy yachts or expensive cars because they think long term it'll make them money, they're just having fun. This is the same on a much larger scale.

---

I don't think anyone however rich just throws money at something without a long term plan to recoup some of it at least, rich people don't get mega rich without being attached to money.

There's other reasons of course, but ultimately making money out of it has to be the goal, I saw something about City being worth 4 times as much as they were when they were bought due to the Chinese investment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

I'm actually convinced it is the other way. In this modern, consumerist world, marketing is king, and our marketing is far more aggressive around the world than it ever has been. We wouldn't be marked down as one of the richest in the world if our merchandise, sales and marketing teams weren't being successful. We had the 5/6th highest shirt sales a couple of years back I believe. What helps us far more than someone like Ajax is the marketing of the PL too, set alongside our own efforts it ensures we can remain an attractive prospect and retain the focus on our recent and more historic success. All horrible, disgusting words of course, as marketing deserves no place in our world, let alone football but it is what it is now.

---

I'm not convinced about our marketing, our commercial deals have been poor in the past and even though they are better now there's a number of club who have trumped us since we signed them.

In addition we don't seem to be exploring the emerging markets as much as we should, China being the biggest surely. Ultimately though, without success we won't have anywhere near the same appeal, you get more fans though success, people wanted to be associated with winning teams and that's what will attract fans from Asian markets the most, our lack of success won't help us in that regard, nor will it help us with sponsorship, big brands want to be associated with winners, not so much people or teams who come 4th.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

I'm not convinced about our marketing, our commercial deals have been poor in the past and even though they are better now there's a number of club who have trumped us since we signed them.

In addition we don't seem to be exploring the emerging markets as much as we should, China being the biggest surely. Ultimately though, without success we won't have anywhere near the same appeal, you get more fans though success, people wanted to be associated with winning teams and that's what will attract fans from Asian markets the most, our lack of success won't help us in that regard, nor will it help us with sponsorship, big brands want to be associated with winners, not so much people or teams who come 4th.

---

Yeah I agree with this and this is where Gazidis has to be held accountable. For all that bravado he came out a few years back about how Man City would love to be in our position or whatever nonsense he said, he looks like a right c*nt now given their commercial deals and ours.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

...and had is the important word here. It may be a side-effect of the massive investment elsewhere, but we are kidding ourselves if our fading star sees our reputation anything like it once was. Years ago on here I wondered whether we might end up something like the mighty Ajax - and I don't think its such a stupid question to ask.

---

:gp:

This. We're still a big club in relative terms but we're not maximising our potential both on and off the pitch as per some of the comments in this thread.

It's almost like we have this laissez faire, almost arrogant attitude of it will all come to us, like we're above marketing ourselves globally like the other 3 do. I find it unbelievable that we have an american owner yet don't have a major presence over their like say United, Chelsea, Liverpool or even City. This attitude seems to run from the top of the club right through to the footballing side.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

I'm not convinced about our marketing, our commercial deals have been poor in the past and even though they are better now there's a number of club who have trumped us since we signed them.

In addition we don't seem to be exploring the emerging markets as much as we should, China being the biggest surely. Ultimately though, without success we won't have anywhere near the same appeal, you get more fans though success, people wanted to be associated with winning teams and that's what will attract fans from Asian markets the most, our lack of success won't help us in that regard, nor will it help us with sponsorship, big brands want to be associated with winners, not so much people or teams who come 4th.

---

There will always be someone worse off or better than yourself on most occassions. I'm not going to sit here and praise any marketing department, given how worthless and inherently vapid they are. Especially ones that whore off part of their club for money. That said, we will follow suit in years to come. Arsenal seem to be doing alright in terms of positioning themselves around the world, always in the top of various shitty sales and value lists. We went to China a few years ago I believe, so give us time and we'll sell out to more rotten investors in time, just like City have.

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

I use the Chelsea and City spending billions of dollars argument against their fans but the question really is... if the status quo was maintained and no Russian or Arab billionaires came in, what are the chances that a mid-level club like City, Chelsea, Tottenham, Villa etc would ever win a PL title?

While we may cry and crib about them spending billions of dollars to win the league, the top 3 status quo was not going to be challenged any other way. Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool were always making more money and had more prestige in the PL era due to their regular participation in the CL. Leeds tried to get into the mix, and we all know how that went tits up for them. I do despise the fact that Chelsea and City have won the way they won their titles, but what other option did they have? Not only them, what are the chances a team like Bournemouth, Everton or Newcastle have in a season to ever win the title?

Unless we go the American sports way of having a set amount for all clubs to spend in a season, we will just have to deal with it. We have the resources to be successful, we just do not have a world class manager. Our manager is stubborn, outdated and lacks a winning mentality.. we really missed a big opportunity not going for Klopp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

---

Go away old man. Do you even know how to text, or use a smartphone?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

---

And accountants ;)

A couple of years back, if anybody dared suggest Wenger spend money we'd have countless debates about how it would bankrupt the club!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

I use the Chelsea and City spending billions of dollars argument against their fans but the question really is... if the status quo was maintained and no Russian or Arab billionaires came in, what are the chances that a mid-level club like City, Chelsea, Tottenham, Villa etc would ever win a PL title?

While we may cry and crib about them spending billions of dollars to win the league, the top 3 status quo was not going to be challenged any other way. Utd, Arsenal and Liverpool were always making more money and had more prestige in the PL era due to their regular participation in the CL. Leeds tried to get into the mix, and we all know how that went tits up for them. I do despise the fact that Chelsea and City have won the way they won their titles, but what other option did they have? Not only them, what are the chances a team like Bournemouth, Everton or Newcastle have in a season to ever win the title?

Unless we go the American sports way of having a set amount for all clubs to spend in a season, we will just have to deal with it. We have the resources to be successful, we just do not have a world class manager. Our manager is stubborn, outdated and lacks a winning mentality.. we really missed a big opportunity not going for Klopp.

---

Of course there was no other way for them to have achieved success. Long gone are the days where a Wimbldon can battle their way up through the leagues and win the FA Cup. You want success in the modern game you're going to need money and a lot of it. We generate ours by fleecing our fans, I hear rumours we have some of the highest ticket prices in the world, I can't remember who told me that ;). If you don't have the global fanbase then you need a very rich benefactor - millionaires need no longer apply.

It's sad how football has gone and there's no sign of the bubble bursting. But you're right, we can only compete in the footballing world we find ourselves in. Whether Wenger can remains to be seen. I don't think the "last 10 years" argument stacks up because it's only in the last couple of years we've had the finances to properly compete with the billionaires. Yes yes, Fergie managed it but he's the only one and as much as I rate Wenger, he's no Fergie.

For me this is Wenger's last chance. After the car crash at the start of last season I thought he should be sacked but retaining the FA Cup placated me somewhat. We have to push on and properly challenge for the title this year. We are so far, we've had our wobbles but so have other teams. If we tail off because of the lack of a top striker or the annual injury pile up then he should be sacked.

But he won't be sacked. He never will be. Fans need to face up to that fact and realise we have at least one more season after this one, no matter what happens.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

But he won't be sacked. He never will be. Fans need to face up to that fact and realise we have at least one more season after this one, no matter what happens.

---

He won't be sacked while he's meeting his boss's expectations.
I don't think any other manager at a club at our level would have kept his job after 8 years with no trophies (although the stadium move and associated financial constraints is a mitigating factor, although we should have won something in that time)
But I don't think many managers would have sacked after the last 2 seasons. We won a fairly prestigious trophy in each. We should be aiming for the biggest prizes but if Wenger had been sacked 2 years ago and these were the new manager's first 2 seasons I doubt many would be calling for his head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

If we tail off because of the lack of a top striker or the annual injury pile up then he should be sacked.

---

We have already seen both the scenarios hit us hard this season. We may fluke this years title and I am fairly confident we wont because of our injury situation, our manager and lack of proper tactics. If I had to put an arbitrary number out there, I am 90% certain this stage that we will not win the title this year and that number is pulled out of thin air.

To me, the question is very simple: "Is Wenger going to make us a dominant team in Europe?" I see no reason whatsoever to think that he will, and that to me is unacceptable for an Arsenal manager. If he is not going to take us to where a club like Arsenal's size should be, then why are we persisting with him?

You cannot 'fluke' a title.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

---

Not me.

I called the ref a cunt and then I got pissed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

We have already seen both the scenarios hit us hard this season. We may fluke this years title and I am fairly confident we wont because of our injury situation, our manager and lack of proper tactics. If I had to put an arbitrary number out there, I am 90% certain this stage that we will not win the title this year and that number is pulled out of thin air.

To me, the question is very simple: "Is Wenger going to make us a dominant team in Europe?" I see no reason whatsoever to think that he will, and that to me is unacceptable for an Arsenal manager. If he is not going to take us to where a club like Arsenal's size should be, then why are we persisting with him?

---

If we somehow do win the title and you consider it a fluke. That is the day you need to stop watching football.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

You cannot 'fluke' a title.

---

Ferguson supposedly did it in his last year at Utd, Blackburn supposedly did it.. Again, dont emphasize on the fluke, emphasize on the question of whether Wenger is the long term answer at Arsenal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw

If we somehow do win the title and you consider it a fluke. That is the day you need to stop watching football.

---

Probably wont happen since we will most likely not win the title, but I will stop watching NFL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

Probably wont happen since we will most likely not win the title, but I will stop watching NFL.

---

The title, a title- whenever it happens, give it up. That was such a fucking stupid thing to say, and your attempt at wit there does not disguise the stupidity of the statement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw

The title, a title- whenever it happens, give it up. That was such a fucking stupid thing to say, and your attempt at wit there does not disguise the stupidity of the statement.

---

Uh sorry, I guess.. :blink:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I love it how football fans have become business analysts, medical experts, not to mention tactical experts.

In my day, you just used to get pissed and call the ref a cunt.

---

I still do that :lol:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

Uh sorry, I guess.. :blink:

---

You should be.

Don't let it happen again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

He won't be sacked while he's meeting his boss's expectations.
I don't think any other manager at a club at our level would have kept his job after 8 years with no trophies (although the stadium move and associated financial constraints is a mitigating factor, although we should have won something in that time)
But I don't think many managers would have sacked after the last 2 seasons. We won a fairly prestigious trophy in each. We should be aiming for the biggest prizes but if Wenger had been sacked 2 years ago and these were the new manager's first 2 seasons I doubt many would be calling for his head.

---

Man City, Chelsea, Barca, Real would sack their manager after two seasons of winning domestic cups. But they are all the worst type of clubs you can imagine. Successful of course but full of utter scumbags both on the pitch and behind the scenes.

Financial targets aside, because they are not football men up at the board level, I think Kroenke and co genuinely revere Wenger too and are in a sense cast under his spell because of his philosophical approach to the game, as well as the previous success and worldwide ambassadorial reputation he has developed.

Wenger will be here next season and beyond if the board have their way, so fans need to decide if they are going to take real action or run circles round themselves just talking about the same problems or suck it up a bit more. Those are the only options on the table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

I'm actually convinced it is the other way. In this modern, consumerist world, marketing is king, and our marketing is far more aggressive around the world than it ever has been. We wouldn't be marked down as one of the richest in the world if our merchandise, sales and marketing teams weren't being successful. We had the 5/6th highest shirt sales a couple of years back I believe. What helps us far more than someone like Ajax is the marketing of the PL too, set alongside our own efforts it ensures we can remain an attractive prospect and retain the focus on our recent and more historic success. All horrible, disgusting words of course, as marketing deserves no place in our world, let alone football but it is what it is now.

---

I think you are forgetting, though, that time moves on. Of course the EPL is big overseas - particularly in Asia. But I think that there are 2 types of club (sticking to our league). There are the likes of Manure and Liverpool - both bigger clubs than us historically because of their sheer dominance of the league in their respective heydays. They have a massive following amongst supporters of a certain generation - both here and abroad. We are just behind them historically - but never achieved such dominance in the modern era. More to the point, unlike these 2 clubs, we have not won the CL. Then there are the new boys - the Chavs and Citeh who have more recent success and who have attracted superstar players. The kids overseas - if they are into the EPL - will be all over these clubs like a rash. We are certainly not minnows in terms of the size of our following - but our star is somewhat on the wane. The pity is that we could have been bigger than anyone other than Manure if we had built on Wenger's early success, but kids at home and overseas want winners, not clubs that simply turn a decent profit with consistent CL football.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

Man City, Chelsea, Barca, Real would sack their manager after two seasons of winning domestic cups. But they are all the worst type of clubs you can imagine. Successful of course but full of utter scumbags both on the pitch and behind the scenes.

Financial targets aside, because they are not football men up at the board level, I think Kroenke and co genuinely revere Wenger too and are in a sense cast under his spell because of his philosophical approach to the game, as well as the previous success and worldwide ambassadorial reputation he has developed.

Wenger will be here next season and beyond if the board have their way, so fans need to decide if they are going to take real action or run circles round themselves just talking about the same problems or suck it up a bit more. Those are the only options on the table.

---

I don't think Kroenke and Co give a flying fuck about Wenger's footballing philosophy. Wenger is good at keeping our club the cash cow that they can milk, while never having invested a single penny in players or stadium.

I agree... I don't think Kroenke reveres Wenger......that would suggest he's into this sport in a big way. Wenger is simply securing his investment and what more would Kroenke want.

If that is compromised, Kroenke will then get twitchy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

I think you are forgetting, though, that time moves on. Of course the EPL is big overseas - particularly in Asia. But I think that there are 2 types of club (sticking to our league). There are the likes of Manure and Liverpool - both bigger clubs than us historically because of their sheer dominance of the league in their respective heydays. They have a massive following amongst supporters of a certain generation - both here and abroad. We are just behind them historically - but never achieved such dominance in the modern era. More to the point, unlike these 2 clubs, we have not won the CL. Then there are the new boys - the Chavs and Citeh who have more recent success and who have attracted superstar players. The kids overseas - if they are into the EPL - will be all over these clubs like a rash. We are certainly not minnows in terms of the size of our following - but our star is somewhat on the wane. The pity is that we could have been bigger than anyone other than Manure if we had built on Wenger's early success, but kids at home and overseas want winners, not clubs that simply turn a decent profit with consistent CL football.

---

All we've had is CL football and top four or years and now added to some truly world class players, that is all a marketing machine has needed to keep the club ripping fans off all over the world. There was a study of around 50k Chinese fans almost a couple of years ago and we came out as the most popular. It's just spin and marketing that can sell any bullshit when done the right way. All the marketing and sales bullshit reflects that in that sense, the Arsenal 'brand' is far from on the wane. But again, I'm trying to remain factual in that they are doing their job 'well' and not supportive of these bullshit mercenaries pricks that run the globe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

I don't think Kroenke and Co give a flying fuck about Wenger's footballing philosophy. Wenger is good at keeping our club the cash cow that they can milk, while never having invested a single penny in players or stadium.

---

Well exactly. Part of his philosophy is doing things on a budget, economics tied into how you play the game. He's a very much a believer in the free market too. Everyone has the right to do and choose as they please. His ideas stretch out way beyond this sport. All the things the arseholes owning our club love. But again, like Wenger's position at the club we are going to have to adjust ourselves because now we are owned by billionaires, we will always be owned by billionaires. More Kroenke's and co to follow that will milk us for whatever they can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fakeyank

Ferguson supposedly did it in his last year at Utd, Blackburn supposedly did it.. Again, dont emphasize on the fluke, emphasize on the question of whether Wenger is the long term answer at Arsenal.

---

He clearly isn't the long term answer if only because of his age.
But he's a relatively safe pair of hands right now, more so than some of the alternatives proposed on here who have gone on to crash and burn. He has his flaws but don't kid yourself that any idiot could come in and do better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

Well exactly. Part of his philosophy is doing things on a budget, economics tied into how you play the game. He's a very much a believer in the free market too. Everyone has the right to do and choose as they please. His ideas stretch out way beyond this sport. All the things the arseholes owning our club love. But again, like Wenger's position at the club we are going to have to adjust ourselves because now we are owned by billionaires, we will always be owned by billionaires. More Kroenke's and co to follow that will milk us for whatever they can.

---

RIP our wonderful game :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chippy

RIP our wonderful game :(

---

Like a lot of things smothered by consumerism you just have to focus on the best of what's left. Most of that is just twenty-two guys having a kick about. All the other shit beyond that just fucks it all up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kano

Well exactly. Part of his philosophy is doing things on a budget, economics tied into how you play the game. He's a very much a believer in the free market too. Everyone has the right to do and choose as they please. His ideas stretch out way beyond this sport. All the things the arseholes owning our club love. But again, like Wenger's position at the club we are going to have to adjust ourselves because now we are owned by billionaires, we will always be owned by billionaires. More Kroenke's and co to follow that will milk us for whatever they can.

---

Yes its a billionaires' game and a business rather than a 'sport' now. But as you well know, there are different ways to milk the cash cow, and in terms of our status and results we very much have the short end of the wedge in terms of our investors. The newcomers to our game are prepared to pump money into their clubs to make them winners - and to leverage that for commercial success. These owners are driven by the need to get to the top - and the majority of our competitors - the Chavs; Citeh; Manure and even Liverpool fall into this bracket. On the other hand. our despicable owner is well known for playing the percentages. Winning is not important as long as we do the minimum required to maintain a commercial position. And I think that this is our fans' frustration - with both owner and manager.