Palace vs Arsenal - August 21st KO: 20:00

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Originally Posted by Letters

You implied it by accusing me of appeal to authority and "ours is not to reason why". That is you strawmanning me.


Well, he does. Clearly. But that doesn't mean he can't be questioned or criticised.


And from your descriptions they're reasonable ones. See above about how it's reasonable to question or criticise a manager.


Of course, but given your certainty about the first two games and your pre-season prediction last season I wonder why you continue to be so confident. You might be right of course, but I'd suggest two games in is not enough evidence to be sure how this season will pan out. I personally would be surprised if we end up as champions, I'm pretty confident we'll do no worse than third but it's impossible to be definitive after two games.


I had to remind myself but ouch, yes that was awful and I think I'd briefly hopped on the Arteta Out bandwagon. The win vs Chelsea on Boxing Day probably saved him

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I'm interested to know what this impending disaster will look like. What in your mind would be acceptable this season? It's surely not the title or bust for you, is it?[/QUOTE]


I think given the money that we’ve spent and the state the other clubs are in, we absolutely should have been looking at winning the title this season yes. City have lost two key players, they have De Bruyne out for months. No nothing in life is a sure thing, but absolutely we should be in the same place Liverpool were in four years ago with the cash we’ve spent.

If you’re serious you will admit that we are no where near that. Despite us being in no worse of a position arguably than Liverpool was when Klopp took over and spent like a drunken sailor to get their single title.

But what am I worried about, I’m worried that this will resemble the last few months of Emery’s time in charge where despite significant outlay (and winning albeit unconvincingly our first two games) we end up mid table, and out of Europe by Christmas. Because of lack of goals and a stubborn imbecile of a coach

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

But what am I worried about, I’m worried that this will resemble the last few months of Emery’s time in charge where despite significant outlay (and winning albeit unconvincingly our first two games) we end up mid table, and out of Europe by Christmas. Because of lack of goals and a stubborn imbecile of a coach

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Ok. Well I guess we’ll reconvene around Christmas then.
I do think we should be aiming for the title this year. We just finished second and we’ve spent big to try and push on. The board has backed Arteta and the pressure is on for him to deliver. I don’t think it’s the title or Arteta Out, but we have to be in the race till the end.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

do I think that if Tierney had anything about him he would have done more to force himself into Arteta’s plans also yes

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how about i repeat myself until it gets through - Aeteta doesn't like traditional fullbacks it's blindingly obvious, that's why he doesn't llke Tierney and there's nothing Tierney can do about it

how can anyone watch how Arteta manages the team and think that any player can force themselves into contention, when his leading trait is picking his favourite 11 week after week after week? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Mac76

how about i repeat myself until it gets through - Aeteta doesn't like traditional fullbacks it's blindingly obvious, that's why he doesn't llke Tierney and there's nothing Tierney can do about it

how can anyone watch how Arteta manages the team and think that any player can force themselves into contention, when his leading trait is picking his favourite 11 week after week after week? :rolleyes:

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I don’t know, maybe it’s the fact that the inverted full back nonsense has only been a favourite toy of Arteta for the last year?

And his favourites do change, Willian was a favourite for ages but ultimately he was dropped, same with Smith Rowe.

Last season was far more about his unwillingness to change things up when we were winning. Which on one hand made sense on the other hand, showed that he’s still very green.

For instance that’s why Tomoyasu kept playing at left back even though was clear he wasn’t up to it.


Plus you seem to think I’m saying Arteta is right to play Zinchenko there, not really but when Tierney did play last season he hardly did anything to mark Arteta think twice.

I thought Tierney looked ok in his first season with us. After that? Never really seen the fuss. Think we can do better frankly

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Originally Posted by Letters

Ok. Well I guess we’ll reconvene around Christmas then.
I do think we should be aiming for the title this year. We just finished second and we’ve spent big to try and push on. The board has backed Arteta and the pressure is on for him to deliver. I don’t think it’s the title or Arteta Out, but we have to be in the race till the end.

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Title or Arteta out? No

Title or serious inquest into how effective our transfer spending has been, how the squad has been utilised and the teams put out yes.

The title for me is out of the question. This time last week I thought top four was out of the question, but I’ve been shocked as to how poor the likes of United, Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs have looked.

That said I thought the same four years ago (probably swapping Newcastle with Leicester at the time).


Where I think the potential to really become unstuck is playing Man City and Chelsea back to back, and then playing Newcastle and Brentford away in November.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

This time last week I thought top four was out of the question, but I’ve been shocked as to how poor the likes of United, Newcastle, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs have looked.

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this has to be the worst PL season for a long time quality-wise, if anyone of those teams gets their act together they're nailed-on second

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Originally Posted by Mac76

this has to be the worst PL season for a long time quality-wise, if anyone of those teams gets their act together they're nailed-on second

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I’m sure this is said every year but I think the reality is that the PL is just an incredibly competitive league where pretty much any team can beat one another on their day.

I always felt the quality was far poorer back in the day when it was us and United slugging it out.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I’m sure this is said every year but I think the reality is that the PL is just an incredibly competitive league where pretty much any team can beat one another on their day.

I always felt the quality was far poorer back in the day when it was us and United slugging it out.

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not sure, I don't see Liverpool, Moan U, Chelsea or even though i hate to say it Spuds playing anywhere near the level they were when they have been at their respective peaks, admittedly for Moan U that's some time now, also Chelsea, but still they all seem to be below par atm

Whilst I think he overstates his case, I do find myself agreeing somewhat with NQ that the standard of football in general has reached a nadir

There are some exceptional players in the PL, but there are a lot of cloggers too. But I guess if even mediocre players can get paid £100k a week these days there's no real reason to push themselves.

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Originally Posted by Letters

There are some exceptional players in the PL, but there are a lot of cloggers too. But I guess if even mediocre players can get paid £100k a week these days there's no real reason to push themselves.

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Not just talking about the premier league, talking about football in general. Top strikers are at a premium, as are good dribblers, and don’t even get me started on crossing the ball.

A mate of mine was being scathing about the crossing in the women's world cup.
I didn't say anything but I did think to myself "Have you see how bloody bad it is in the men's game?!".
I do find it lamentable how bad some of these basic skills are at the top level.

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Originally Posted by Letters

A mate of mine was being scathing about the crossing in the women's world cup.
I didn't say anything but I did think to myself "Have you see how bloody bad it is in the men's game?!".
I do find it lamentable how bad some of these basic skills are at the top level.

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There's a huge amount of double standards applied by some people to the women's game, every time a woman makes a big mistake it's held up as a supposed example of the general standard, whereas with men it's regarded as the exception

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Originally Posted by Mac76

There's a huge amount of double standards applied by some people to the women's game, every time a woman makes a big mistake it's held up as a supposed example of the general standard, whereas with men it's regarded as the exception

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Apart from being slightly slower, less aggressive and a bit less technical finesse I can’t say I’ve noticed loads of difference. The crowd don’t seem quite as engaged as they are with the men’s game but that’s because at this stage in it’s development women’s football is more of a hobby for spectators where as with mens it’s a religion. The differences are more down to what you’d expect in the physical differences of men and women, I’ve no doubt most current women’s players are far in advance of the women’s game twenty years ago

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I’ve no doubt most current women’s players are far in advance of the women’s game twenty years ago

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I mean, yeah :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy4U6mjt90A

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

The crowd don’t seem quite as engaged as they are with the men’s game but that’s because at this stage in it’s development women’s football is more of a hobby for spectators where as with mens it’s a religion.

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Also, you say that, but this is the kind of stuff you'd expect to see at Partizan Belgrade :lol:

https://youtu.be/bzDb6ZLGPbA?t=22

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Originally Posted by Mac76

There's a huge amount of double standards applied by some people to the women's game, every time a woman makes a big mistake it's held up as a supposed example of the general standard, whereas with men it's regarded as the exception

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Not just their game but women in football, specifically commentators and pundits. Every time they make a stupid fuckin point, and they make a lot, it's held up as some proof of affirmative action...completely neglecting the fact that legitimate mongoloids like Micah Richards and Jamie Redknapp...in fact nearly all are guilty of it...say ridiculous shit constantly.

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Originally Posted by mandela8

Not just their game but women in football, specifically commentators and pundits. Every time they make a stupid fuckin point, and they make a lot, it's held up as some proof of affirmative action...completely neglecting the fact that legitimate mongoloids like Micah Richards and Jamie Redknapp...in fact nearly all are guilty of it...say ridiculous shit constantly.

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yes pundits as we know can be preety bad, men or women - during the Women's World Cup final, the BBC commentary team were both women - the so-called expert analyst (some former player or other) was desperately trying to create a narrative that Spain were time-wasting by going down too much and too long under England tackles - but the commentator kept pointing out (with the help of the replays) that the tackles were actually quite fierce and therefore the Spain players were justified :lol:

Can policy not change over time?

I mean, when Arteta came in, the first thing he did was put some basic shape in the side such that we were a bit more difficult to play against.

We then started addressing the issue of removing shite from the books. And also removed pure talent, because talent is not good enough on its own without a team ethos, and a willingness to learn and put in the graft.

Massive calls is fucking off Ozil, Auba, Guendosi(sp)/the second coming according to some.

Then we blooded a team for a year. White, Gabriel, Saka, ESR etc etc….in the first season we fell short of CL…the means to and reason for a deeper squad, and heavy spending.

Look, if we fuck the whole thing up this year, Arteta is naturally on his way out. I don’t believe for one second that they will back him further if we fall back into the Europa and mid-table bullshit.

But by giving a manager time, by taking a more rational, less aggressive stance, we’re in a far better position than the clubs who have a revolving door as a manager recruitment process.

Just wait. Be patient. Every year so far has been (in the grand scheme), better than the last. And I at least feel like we have the groundwork for rebuilding what was a shell of a club when Wenger left.

Just have go on the stadium tour again. Love it….everything is about the club’s history and the lessons we have learned. It’s class. “Remember who you are, what you are and what you represent”. That is everything for me. After that, you have talent, or not….and thats for the club to decide, otherwise, I’m behind em

Ps. Was resonding to actual football natter. No wimball

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Originally Posted by LDG

Can policy not change over time?

I mean, when Arteta came in, the first thing he did was put some basic shape in the side such that we were a bit more difficult to play against.

We then started addressing the issue of removing shite from the books. And also removed pure talent, because talent is not good enough on its own without a team ethos, and a willingness to learn and put in the graft.

Massive calls is fucking off Ozil, Auba, Guendosi(sp)/the second coming according to some.

Then we blooded a team for a year. White, Gabriel, Saka, ESR etc etc….in the first season we fell short of CL…the means to and reason for a deeper squad, and heavy spending.

Look, if we fuck the whole thing up this year, Arteta is naturally on his way out. I don’t believe for one second that they will back him further if we fall back into the Europa and mid-table bullshit.

But by giving a manager time, by taking a more rational, less aggressive stance, we’re in a far better position than the clubs who have a revolving door as a manager recruitment process.

Just wait. Be patient. Every year so far has been (in the grand scheme), better than the last. And I at least feel like we have the groundwork for rebuilding what was a shell of a club when Wenger left.

Just have go on the stadium tour again. Love it….everything is about the club’s history and the lessons we have learned. It’s class. “Remember who you are, what you are and what you represent”. That is everything for me. After that, you have talent, or not….and thats for the club to decide, otherwise, I’m behind em

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Sometimes I feel like, when listening to certain Arsenal fans like I’m on the outside watching a documentary about a cult.

It’s all very well saying well he will get sacked if we end up sliding down the table again, but where does that leave us?. It might help if the club intervened well before that point. But a block on transfers like Zinchenko, Vieira, Havertz and Rice and say…”we are investing a lot of money in this team, it’s not for you to piss it up the wall”

As for getting rid of Ozil being a big move? It was the only move the guy was becoming feral, we had to cut him loose. Auba I suspect we only got rid of when he lost his usefulness to us and Guendouzi…well when we had players like Xhaka, Elneny and Lokonga in the midfield it does make you question the sense of getting rid of him.

Same with Torreira arguably

But if Captain Black don’t rate you, you either have to pull up trees or you’re screwed


I worry about what he’s saddled us with, an imbalanced squad…so much money spent that it will be almost impossible to fix the mistakes he’s made. And a complete stubbornness when it comes to rotating and the system we play.


But above all else there is frustration, that despite city probably being weaker than last season, despite Liverpool, Chelsea, spurs, United, Newcastle all being in some form of transition. That we chose not to get the players that might actually win us the league.

We’ve bemoaned for decades it feels that we don’t have the finances to compete and when we do, it gets wasted by a Spaniard who has a pathological urge to buy full backs and shoehorn players into the wrong position.

There’s no guarantees in life, and we are entitled to nothing but it feels weird to me that other people don’t feel the massive resentment I feel at what we’ve squandered

I'd forgotten about Torreira - he was one of those players who, when he first came, we thought we might have for years and who might be something of a legend - same with Tierney actually - i sometimes think the revolving door is going more and more quickly for some players at least

meanwhile we get stuck with Xhaka for five seasons too many and no doubt it will be the same with Zinchenko

@LDG I get what you are saying and I go to almost every home game and get behind the team on the day, but i can't blindly just accept all of what Arteta does if i think he's making really bad calls - and i do think he's making some really bad calls - but if we suddenly start playing like a team supposedly in contention then i might start to believe in him a bit more