Arsenal 0-1 West Ham Match Reaction

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I’ve honestly tried being nice and patient

But if people want to promote a narrative rather than analyse the situation for what it is. I’m going to be sarcastic and off hand. Will I get anywhere doing this? No but I’ve clearly got no where being patient and understanding and at least this way I have more fun

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Ah well, at least it will get your post count up though, eh :good:

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Sensitive?! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!

I gave a one post tongue in cheek response, I actually couldn't care less :)

All those things you said are probably to an extent, true, I have no doubt he is not in form as it shows.
However, if he was doing hi sown thing and not following the instructions of how Arteta wants the team to function, I very much doubt he would be playing.

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Doubtless he wouldn’t be playing, if we had an alternative to play there

That’s the problem we don’t. And I don’t think it’s reasonable (and I don’t think you do either) to think Arteta has turned into a lunatic and told our most creative player…don’t play so creatively. Honestly what do you see when you watch Odegaard, a player high on confidence or a player looking unsure…pensive….trying simpler things because he doesn’t believe in himself that the more adventurous things will come off?.

I mean for heavens sake he even hesitated slightly when Havertz gave him an open goal against Man City (and Havertz did that because he didn’t have the confidence to take it on himself).

These are players with tired minds and tired bodies, what was once easy for them isn’t coming off now.

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Ah well, at least it will get your post count up though, eh :good:

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Not remotely interested in anything like that. If no one said anything I disagreed with I’d probably never post on the football side of the forum. Because in likelihood someone’s already said something I think is true and probably said it more succinctly

I’ve actually said more than once in the past that I don’t like the style of football we play, but at this moment in time….it’s a bit like saying you don’t like the decorating in the upstairs bathroom when the roof has blown off.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

It’s a laudable worry but I’m afraid there’s not much we can do about it

People dont like feeling powerless and helpless to prevent something and they’ll do anything to fight against it. I suspect this is why I’m getting so much resistance.

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I would say the resistance is coming at you more because you seem to think we don't have any player capable of doing the basics in football, every team plays one way against us but you seemingly won't acknowledge why that is, you treat everyone on here like they are idiots & you are incapable of having a general discussion without your superiority complex taking over.

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

I have probably seen about 3 games this season where we attempted a full on, proper, from start to finish, counter attack.

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Off the top of my head

The last goal we scored was a counter attacking goal

At least two of the goals we scored against City were on the counter

Then there is Sporting Lisbon, Palace, West Ham, the third goal against Southampton at home.

I think in too many games it’s more been about huffing and puffing against teams who sit deep to take the lead and then having used up so much energy we decide to sit off.

There is certainly no pathological aversion to it, maybe just not the confidence to pull it off

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Doubtless he wouldn’t be playing, if we had an alternative to play there

That’s the problem we don’t. And I don’t think it’s reasonable (and I don’t think you do either) to think Arteta has turned into a lunatic and told our most creative player…don’t play so creatively. Honestly what do you see when you watch Odegaard, a player high on confidence or a player looking unsure…pensive….trying simpler things because he doesn’t believe in himself that the more adventurous things will come off?.

I mean for heavens sake he even hesitated slightly when Havertz gave him an open goal against Man City (and Havertz did that because he didn’t have the confidence to take it on himself).

These are players with tired minds and tired bodies, what was once easy for them isn’t coming off now.

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Aren't you the same guy who has basically been posting about Arteta being a cold, passive aggressive, egotistical cunt - but he can't be a lunatic as well?

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Off the top of my head

The last goal we scored was a counter attacking goal

At least two of the goals we scored against City were on the counter

Then there is Sporting Lisbon, Palace, West Ham, the third goal against Southampton at home.

I think in too many games it’s more been about huffing and puffing against teams who sit deep to take the lead and then having used up so much energy we decide to sit off.

There is certainly no pathological aversion to it, maybe just not the confidence to pull it off

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I think the boredom from watching us play has made me black out during parts of the game

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

I would say the resistance is coming at you more because you seem to think we don't have any player capable of doing the basics in football, every team plays one way against us but you seemingly won't acknowledge why that is, you treat everyone on here like they are idiots & you are incapable of having a general discussion without your superiority complex taking over.

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I do people here the respect of believing that they are at least equal in intelligence to myself. If I thought you were all stupid, I wouldn’t bother insulting you because a) it would go over your heads and b) I wouldn’t hold you in contempt for what I regard as specious reasoning.


The vast majority of teams do play one way against us, they would be foolish not to. It’s not a conspiracy, they will play the same way against Liverpool or city. Deny them space and time on the ball and try and get them to overcommit and catch them on the break

The difference is City and Liverpool don’t play with two defensive midfielders, I’ve screamed blue murder about this especially in home games. But we don’t have the luxury of playing two attacking midfielders in central midfield for example now. With Saka out, Nwaneri has to play on the wing

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Aren't you the same guy who has basically been posting about Arteta being a cold, passive aggressive, egotistical cunt - but he can't be a lunatic as well?

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I think he’s all of those things.


But I don’t think for example he believes the dog on the training ground inhabits the soul of his dead grandad. This is the kind of lunacy we’d be talking for him to be actively encouraging Odegaard to play like that.


But what im hearing is. “It’s ok for you to rant on, but when someone else does it….you’re on them like a fly on shit”


Now if that was your argument, I’d have to say fair enough. But you’d then have to accept most of your current arguments come from letting off steam and frustration rather than rational analysis. I’m past the point of anger and frustration

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

I think the boredom from watching us play has made me black out during parts of the game

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Fair

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

I would say the resistance is coming at you more because you seem to think we don't have any player capable of doing the basics in football, every team plays one way against us but you seemingly won't acknowledge why that is, you treat everyone on here like they are idiots & you are incapable of having a general discussion without your superiority complex taking over.

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Sounds like me - LOL, except I don't believe we lack the players to give us something worth watching.

This can be boiled down to an even simpler demand, can't it?

Please, for the love of God! SHOOOT! Or run. Or do something that doesn't have me tearing my eyes out. Ours are the only games I watch where I look at the clock and it's gone backwards. I've often wondered if I could get a week's work done during the first half of one of our games. At least under Wenger he let the players stray a couple of inches from the Way of the Pep. But when you see our lot now and you see that ball played with a bit more directness (on rare occasions) and then watch the recipient stood stock still, back to goal - then Partey runs over and indicates the ball should be played anywhere except to him, then Odegard gets it and runs this way, short pass, return pass, runs that way, short pass, return pass... Then gets tackled by Raya on his way up the pitch.

There's no way in a million years this is the only way we can play, injuries or not. This is almost as bad an excuse as nobody being available in the January window. I'll take the red cards, injuries, lucky Liverpool excuses over the idea our players can't play.

Our manager won't let them. That's the problem.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Are you still working from the assumption that someone could only disagree with you to be contrary

Are you that conceited that you don’t believe anyone could disagree with your opinions

That’s not rhetorical, I genuinely want to know

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nothing to do with any of that, it's just most people might exchange a fewe thoughts or points or indeed contrary ideas, but most people then just think 'whatever' but you just carry on and on and on to make sure you get the last word and then you can tell yoruself it must mean you were right about whatever it was

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

:shrug: that’s exactly what happened against West Ham.

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just watched it again, Cala's with AW-B all the way but stands off him which gives him the space to cross - exactly what I said

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Originally Posted by Mac76

nothing to do with any of that, it's just most people might exchange a fewe thoughts or points or indeed contrary ideas, but most people then just think 'whatever' but you just carry on and on and on to make sure you get the last word and then you can tell yoruself it must mean you were right about whatever it was

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You do realise you’re describing yourself just as much as you’re describing me

It really depends who we are arguing with on here. There are people like yourself who I will have endless back and forths with. Just because you might give up before me doesn’t mean you aren’t driven to have the last word when you think you’re right. There are other people where as you say it’s a few exchanges. To put it frankly the length and aggressiveness of the discussion is dependent on whether the person has a big an ego as me. You certainly do, Letters does, NQ does and to a lesser extent so does that 21 Gun salute chap (although he also lacks the stamina)

My point was that the other day you were suggesting that I was disagreeing with you for the sake of it. Nope. Also where my fault lies is that I don’t want to give the impression that I’ve ceded my point of view when I think I’m right.

I don’t need to convince myself I’m right (I already think I am otherwise I wouldn’t make the argument to begin with)

I’ve admitted countless times to that though

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Originally Posted by Mac76

just watched it again, Cala's with AW-B all the way but stands off him which gives him the space to cross - exactly what I said

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So I’m going to say yes you’re right he is there all the way with AW-B (I can’t deny that it’s there as a fact). I’m thinking of another time in the game where AW-B is motoring away and he’s nowhere and it’s Rice chasing after him. I’m going to say I disagree with you that he stands off him though I think he remains quite tight to him and short of sliding in I don’t think there’s much more he can do.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Sounds like me - LOL, except I don't believe we lack the players to give us something worth watching.

This can be boiled down to an even simpler demand, can't it?

Please, for the love of God! SHOOOT! Or run. Or do something that doesn't have me tearing my eyes out. Ours are the only games I watch where I look at the clock and it's gone backwards. I've often wondered if I could get a week's work done during the first half of one of our games. At least under Wenger he let the players stray a couple of inches from the Way of the Pep. But when you see our lot now and you see that ball played with a bit more directness (on rare occasions) and then watch the recipient stood stock still, back to goal - then Partey runs over and indicates the ball should be played anywhere except to him, then Odegard gets it and runs this way, short pass, return pass, runs that way, short pass, return pass... Then gets tackled by Raya on his way up the pitch.

There's no way in a million years this is the only way we can play, injuries or not. This is almost as bad an excuse as nobody being available in the January window. I'll take the red cards, injuries, lucky Liverpool excuses over the idea our players can't play.

Our manager won't let them. That's the problem.

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I agree, these players do know how to do those things you have said, they just seem like they know they will be getting a massive bollocking if they dare try!

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

I agree, these players do know how to do those things you have said, they just seem like they know they will be getting a massive bollocking if they dare try!

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My experience watching us for years is that players will put on an extra pass when they aren’t confident. Havertz against Man City for example squared to Odegaard who had to take a touch for our first goal against City last month

It’s indicative for me of people lacking the confidence in their own ability to put it in the net. Partey apart from anything else loves taking on shots from outside the box and I’ve never had reason to believe he’s been actively discouraged to do so. There is of course a system designed to strangle the life out of opposition and it is rigid, but equally you’ve seen players fairly recently break out and try something individualist. Odegaard stank the place out first half against Ipswich but then decided to go on a couple of solo runs in the second half of that game to open up space, as far as I’m aware he wasn’t bollocked or dropped in the next game for this.

I think Arteta might do that only if in doing so a player played their way into trouble, giving the ball away in a dangerous area, at least unlike Guardiola he won’t try and berate the players on the pitch.

I still very much think a lot of people on here, are doing everything to avoid accepting the fact that our ability to score goals which was far from consistent when we had everyone fit, is now greatly diminished because of what’s available to us.

But again, so there’s no confusion in terms of talking at cross purposes. If it’s argued that we shouldn’t rigidly stick to this system and go for a more direct style of play (I’m not going to say counter attack because most teams are not going to go on the front foot against us) and work on a route one alternative and bring in technically minded footballers. Of course I agree with that, I’ve said as much for long enough

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

My experience watching us for years is that players will put on an extra pass when they aren’t confident. Havertz against Man City for example squared to Odegaard who had to take a touch for our first goal against City last month

It’s indicative for me of people lacking the confidence in their own ability to put it in the net. Partey apart from anything else loves taking on shots from outside the box and I’ve never had reason to believe he’s been actively discouraged to do so. There is of course a system designed to strangle the life out of opposition and it is rigid, but equally you’ve seen players fairly recently break out and try something individualist. Odegaard stank the place out first half against Ipswich but then decided to go on a couple of solo runs in the second half of that game to open up space, as far as I’m aware he wasn’t bollocked or dropped in the next game for this.

I think Arteta might do that only if in doing so a player played their way into trouble, giving the ball away in a dangerous area, at least unlike Guardiola he won’t try and berate the players on the pitch.

I still very much think a lot of people on here, are doing everything to avoid accepting the fact that our ability to score goals which was far from consistent when we had everyone fit, is now greatly diminished because of what’s available to us.

But again, so there’s no confusion in terms of talking at cross purposes. If it’s argued that we shouldn’t rigidly stick to this system and go for a more direct style of play (I’m not going to say counter attack because most teams are not going to go on the front foot against us) and work on a route one alternative and bring in technically minded footballers. Of course I agree with that, I’ve said as much for long enough

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Bingo - highlighted.

Re the confidence issue - its not difficult to see the reason for this. Our system is difficult to play in. As I've said on the other thread, we have too many hybrid players not simply asked to do the thing they are best at. Plus ironically our patient build up style congests the final third and means that the level of technical ability to progress the ball forwards is through the roof. Odegard and Jesus at their best, and Saka because he is world class could manage this. Noone else can. We make it too difficult for ourselves, IMO.

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Originally Posted by IBK

Bingo - highlighted.

Re the confidence issue - its not difficult to see the reason for this. Our system is difficult to play in. As I've said on the other thread, we have too many hybrid players not simply asked to do the thing they are best at. Plus ironically our patient build up style congests the final third and means that the level of technical ability to progress the ball forwards is through the roof. Odegard and Jesus at their best, and Saka because he is world class could manage this. Noone else can. We make it too difficult for ourselves, IMO.

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I think the confidence or lack there of has been more present in the last few months. Players like Odegaard etc seems reluctant to take anyone on let alone take shots on. Ultimately as I say the system is far from the top reason we are where we are, in that far more results have been attributable to either the players we lack due to injury or shocking refereeing decisions.


I think in attack we’ve unquestionably become too dependent on Saka, but I think as much as the system he is the player up front who has the most individual skill.

I think not strengthening and in fact making the squad smaller is far more of a contributing factor. It’s not that I don’t think the system should change, it’s that with the injuries we’ve had and the players we’ve overused…..we’d be pretty much in the same position anyway.

There are a couple of games like Fulham and Everton where I think we could have been a lot more ambitious with who we had on the pitch. And as I’ve repeatedly said, with a fully fit squad there’s no need to play two defensive midfielders in most home games….which I think hinders us in terms of getting the ball forward quicker (and then we can talk about passing the ball into space etc, because the space will exist)

I re-watched the games against West Ham and Forest, against West Ham we weren’t great but I’ve seen far worse performances where we’ve won games in the last couple of years. If the option was there I’d drop Odegaard for a few matches because he looks like he’s running on fumes and has barely had a break since he returned from injury (we really wouldn’t be any worse off with Vieira still here stepping in).
Against Forest I thought we played reasonably well, but in neither game were we coughing up loads of chances to the opposing team, and although the attacking build up was a bit slow at times. It felt to me like whether the opposition defence had, had time to get back in shape or not….we weren’t going to make the net bulge. Few players seemed to want to try and take shots on, Trossard worked hard but always seemed to be getting the ball trapped under his feet rather than being able to shoot first time and Merino lacked the movement of Havertz to get himself in place on the occasion when crosses did come in