Ozil - Do we need him?

I don't think honestly we've had a strong vociferous captain since Tony Adams

Vieira had his strengths, but he wasn't a shouter or a natural leader, but he was smart enough to compensate for that (for example he would tell Sol Campbell to constantly shout at him if he thought that he wasn't doing a good enough job of protecting the back line)

He had the respect of the players, and even though the captaincy was given to him to stop him from leaving you would see in pre match warm ups that he'd be talking to the players.

Henry wasn't a great captain, he was too much of an individual and you could see him get very frustrated when players couldn't match his abilities.

Gilberto could have been given more time, but actually stripping him of the captaincy and giving it to Gallas was one of the few times Wenger has been ruthless with his decision making. Gallas was vociferous, but clearly a complete prick and unable to inspire people.

Fabregas did ok but was arguably too young.

Van Persie was just another sop to stop him from leaving which he did.

Arteta very smart but not a leader on the pitch

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I don't think honestly we've had a strong vociferous captain since Tony Adams

Vieira had his strengths, but he wasn't a shouter or a natural leader, but he was smart enough to compensate for that (for example he would tell Sol Campbell to constantly shout at him if he thought that he wasn't doing a good enough job of protecting the back line)

He had the respect of the players, and even though the captaincy was given to him to stop him from leaving you would see in pre match warm ups that he'd be talking to the players.

Henry wasn't a great captain, he was too much of an individual and you could see him get very frustrated when players couldn't match his abilities.

Gilberto could have been given more time, but actually stripping him of the captaincy and giving it to Gallas was one of the few times Wenger has been ruthless with his decision making. Gallas was vociferous, but clearly a complete prick and unable to inspire people.

Fabregas did ok but was arguably too young.

Van Persie was just another sop to stop him from leaving which he did.

Arteta very smart but not a leader on the pitch

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Possibly Wenger's most shameful moment at the club. One of the most idiotic things he has done, in a catalogue of idiocy.

Read Ollie Holt's piece from this weekend. It really does capture very well where the club and the fans are now. Half the fan base is listening to idiots like Holt and eating it all up. After a decade of this shit any other manager at any other club would be vilified by this stage. Instead it's the job of some fans to cast around for any excuse or alternative scapegoat. Wenger can't cut it and hasn't been able to cut it for years? Easy solution! Get rid of Ozil.

I mean it's laughable. Do anything bar fixing the huge and obvious problem. Blame anyone except the guy who has been fucking it up for the last 13 years.

The issue i have with your argument is that it's not Binary, Wenger being the problem does not vindicate Ozil....and i hate to say it, he's my favourite player at the club because i love how he can see a pass that no-one else can, watching him from an aerial position at the Emirates the guy is a master of geometry.

But he isn't putting in the effort, Wenger is to blame for this but mainly because he hasn't dropped him. He was 25 when he joined us not a young kid, no matter how bad the pre match planning or the lack of tactics....players especially ones of his calibre should have the maturity to stand out and not hide away during matches.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Possibly Wenger's most shameful moment at the club. One of the most idiotic things he has done, in a catalogue of idiocy.

Read Ollie Holt's piece from this weekend. It really does capture very well where the club and the fans are now. Half the fan base is listening to idiots like Holt and eating it all up. After a decade of this shit any other manager at any other club would be vilified by this stage. Instead it's the job of some fans to cast around for any excuse or alternative scapegoat. Wenger can't cut it and hasn't been able to cut it for years? Easy solution! Get rid of Ozil.

I mean it's laughable. Do anything bar fixing the huge and obvious problem. Blame anyone except the guy who has been fucking it up for the last 13 years.

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Really? ;) Do you really think that’s what I’m proposing after the many discussions had on the manger? Mate, you do remember our debates years back when it was me telling you the problem was Wenger but you were insistent it was Ivan and Stan that was holding Wenger back. You remember that, right? You’d defend him on daily and deflect the attention away in a similar way to what you’re doing now. The nerve! The majority of what I spent years debating with you, the mangers tactical flaws, him choosing not to spend despite having resources, having a manager more interested in defending the Board’s interests instead of the fans….every point I made back from around 2010 or whenever it was, you are now in full agreement with and are actually more militant than I ever was about wanting Wenger out. You should know better!

The idea Ozil is not putting effort in is pure nonsense. The problem is, he's becoming more and more frustrated and he's also appears t have taken a step back physically. But "effort", as measured in this shitty league, is not the problem. He's putting in the required shift but that's all he's doing right now. He's not playing effectively. Then again, neither is anyone else apart from Ox who has suddenly emerged as the most effective player on the pitch. I have a nasty feeling that's because he's fed-up too and has decided to put himself in the shop window. Pure speculation, but it seems odd he's suddenly stepped up when everyone else has disintegrated into chaos. He's the only guy that anyone could realistically point to now and say he's playing well. Nobody else is, particularly the defenders. I've heard people saying Mustafi has been playing well. It's amazing how people confuse rushing around the place like a headless chicken with playing well. Bellerin, Monreal and Gibbs have been atrocious. even Kos is well off his form. Amazingly we've managed to turn Cech into a poor keeper.

This is Wenger. 100%. There are far too many indicators all pointing to the same place. Get rid of him and we get back to a sane platform on which to build individual and team performances. Keep him here and it is pointless judging anything else. Pointless. Like wondering what effect a gnat would have if it landed on the bonnet of a car going over a cliff.

Another thing, all these experts in 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-6-3-7-5.2 formation, or whatever other shit they are on about. That's all they say! They don't ever say WHY these formations would be better or worse. And even if they did, it would be just a different sort of bullshit because it depends who the opposition is. If you are up against the best team on the planet but they are playing a corpse at right back then that's where your plan is focused. Formations, tactics, in game changes, the correct answer is not some automatic and weird formation that mirrors something Pep did, the answer is not "false 9" or any other shitty punditry. The answer is - WHO ARE WE PLAYING? I recall seeing one guy say the problem is we have Plan A, Plan A, and plan A. That's the problem in a nutshell. That's why we can blow teams away and then see a total reversal. Once the opposition have Wenger figured out (and it isn't hard) it then comes down to individuals to try to claw that massive disadvantage back. When they don't do it week in, week out then fans blame them and give Wenger a free ride.

Eventually Wenger will go. When he does we'll see such a transformation at this club it will scarcely be believed. And it will be good, across the board. Because whoever comes in will surely at least pay attention to the basics that Wenger misses every week.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Really? ;) Do you really think that’s what I’m proposing after the many discussions had on the manger? Mate, you do remember our debates years back when it was me telling you the problem was Wenger but you were insistent it was Ivan and Stan that was holding Wenger back. You remember that, right? You’d defend him on daily and deflect the attention away in a similar way to what you’re doing now. The nerve! The majority of what I spent years debating with you, the mangers tactical flaws, him choosing not to spend despite having resources, having a manager more interested in defending the Board’s interests instead of the fans….every point I made back from around 2010 or whenever it was, you are now in full agreement with and are actually more militant than I ever was about wanting Wenger out. You should know better!

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Has this, or has this not been your main focus over the past months? Ozil this, Ozil that. But in the end it's not even an argument. There's a sane position and an insane position. The former is to rid ourselves of the major problem. The latter is to start ridding ourselves of our best players before tackling the major problem.

Here's a fan.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/arsena...ville-6441679/

And it goes all the way back to fat bastards like Martin Samuel and snidey little gits like Neil Ashton and their shitty agendas. StealingALiving.

Some fans have looked at a transfer fee and decided the player it is attached to must compensate for the whole shitfest that has engulfed the club. Is that how it works? A million things can be wrong but it's that one guy who isn't huffing and puffing and doing a Jimmy Bullard impersonation that needs to get canned?

I'll admit where Ozil has fallen short this season (and did it again in the previous post). But I'm not jumping onboard a press agenda and doing the lazy, not trying thing because that narrative is demonstrably false.

Again it all seems to be because the media talking heads are saying it, it has to be demonstrably untrue. Who cares what their motivations/agendas are?, i don't watch Sunday Supplement, most of the time i don't read what John Cross, Martin Samuel et al have to say because i don't care.....if i can motivate myself to watch games i don't listen to the pre/post match punditry, I haven't watched match of the day in years so in that respect I have no idea what they think about Ozil in the first place.

Wenger's lack of tactical nous, lack of motivational ability i am sure contributes to Ozil looking disinterested on the pitch, but i repeat a player of his calibre shouldn't need Daddy draping an arm around his shoulder telling him what he needs to do. I love Ozil as a player i really do, there have been times where it's a privilege to watch him play.

But he has been consistently one of the most underperforming players in the side for two-three months now, and that's because he's always in the side no matter how badly he performs. If Wenger's shortcomings were affecting him that badly wouldn't he be going out of his way to push himself if only to put himself in the shop window, as much as i think Van Persie is a scumbag for going to United.....there was certainly no dropping of his level when he stayed fit

And Sanchez has poor games mainly because he is being shoved out wide left by Wenger, but the games where you can say this guy isn't trying are very few and far between.

Would a better manager be getting more out of Ozil?....probably but we are stuck with what we are stuck with, and arguably whoever is the coach we have to question the motivations of a player who only seems to want to up his game when he feels like it. Reminding me currently of a much more expensive and more talented Laurent Robert.

@NQ

I'm certain if Ozil was some unknown player you never heard of you wouldn't be cutting him so much slack. You're caught up in the press hype for sure.

So it's ok to discuss Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Ramsey and Mert's position in the team and limitations but not Ozil's? Why because you say he's world class?

It's best you steer clear of these conversations if you don't respect the tactical side of things. You're in no position to talk about Wenger's tactical flaws or team selection if you've got this sort of mentality.

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Another thing, all these experts in 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-6-3-7-5.2 formation, or whatever other shit they are on about. That's all they say! They don't ever say WHY these formations would be better or worse.

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Why has Ozil fallen short this season? From your perspective, why are you now saying that?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

@NQ

I'm certain if Ozil was some unknown player you never heard of you wouldn't be cutting him so much slack. You're caught up in the press hype for sure.

So it's ok to discuss Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Ramsey and Mert's position in the team and limitations but not Ozil's? Why because you say he's world class?

It's best you steer clear of these conversations if you don't respect the tactical side of things. You're in no position to talk about Wenger's tactical flaws or team selection if you've got this sort of mentality.



Why has Ozil fallen short this season? From your perspective, why are you now saying that?

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I'm caught up in it? I think you are mistaking me with the Nevilles and Samuels and Ashtons that share YOUR opinion.

And don't be changing your argument mid-stream. "Ozil - Do we need him? I really don’t rate him as a playmaker and won’t lose any sleep if he leaves."

Why has Ozil fallen short?

It's incredible. Wenger provides another shit show of a season, virtually all the players fail to turn up and the question is... Why has Ozil fallen short?

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say for the same reason the rest of the team has fallen short. The idiot at the helm with his tip, tap bullshit and his "backs to goal" counter and his "only turn up for 45 minutes" energy plan and his total disregard for the opposition. Or put another way, I'd say it's for the same reason ALL of Wenger's post-Invincible teams have failed.

Solution? Get rid of Ozil?

The real question is why you are so determined to defend a non-starter of an argument.

We have 2 world class players for a new guy to start with, if Wenger ever leaves. Just forget about things improving while Wenger is here. Player changes, tactical changes, when was the last time that made any difference? In the last decade? When? Every single upturn in fortunes came about through sheer luck, circumstances forced on Wenger. He hasn't made a choice in 10 years that has moved this team an inch forward. So explain to me how getting rid of Ozil and replacing him with X, Y or Z is going to make a blind bit of difference?

At least with Ozil in the team you have somebody who can pass more than 2 yards sideways. Somebody who can do simple stuff like trap a ball. In case you haven't noticed, these very basic skills have deserted many of our players. So you want to take one area of quality that can sometime overcome the manager's sabotage? Why? Because you see 42million (Mustafi was how much?) and think this is it, he'll do it all by himself? And when he doesn't then it's time to make up stuff about him not trying and not being interested - okay so nobody claims to have been influenced by the media and yet it is the exact same bullshit they are pushing. Coincidence.

If you want to say Ozil's form has dropped off from earlier in the season then I don't disagree with that. If you want to say he looks a bit lightweight in terms of physical strength I'm okay with that too. But the lazy, doesn't care BS. No evidence of that whatsoever. Not a shred. All manufactured from the day he arrived by a bullshit media that has stuck to the same crap regardless of how he plays.

You go even further. Get rid. Don't need him. It's just silliness. We need more like him. It's a disgrace we only have 2 world class players in a stadium that was supposed to be a theatre for our ambitions as a top fight European club. But if 2 is all we have then let's bloody make sure we hang on to them in the hope somebody with half a clue can come in and use them.

In all honesty i'd want him to stay to see if he will perform better under a better manager, but i don't necessarily buy that that's a given.

I don't in anyway question his ability, but sometimes players are wasters of their own talent and Ozil could simply be one of those.

In the past i have found the criticism of him on here a bit overblown, but frankly these last few months have caused me to re-assess that view.

I think it's a lazy criticism to say people are just influenced by the media rather than what they see with their own eyes, even if i can't be bothered to watch the matches live i tend to watch the full match again at some point and what you can see in Ozil is a player who gives up as soon as something doesn't immediately go his way, not getting angry or swearing the way he might have done last season....just shrugging his shoulders almost if he's dispossessed....that's not a confidence thing it's disinterest. And my argument is that if he really wants out of Wenger's fiefdom he'd put himself in the shop window with displays he is more than capable of, but frankly if anything i think he is more likely to stay than Sanchez if Wenger stays, to keep himself in an environment where he doesn't have to push or apply himself....very comfortable.

Again i think it's Wenger's fault, because he hasn't dropped Ozil....would that motivate him?......who knows.