General Football Nonsense

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Equally this assumption that fans will have a problem with the FA appointing a German is a mistaken assumption held by left and right. The left because of the sneering contempt they hold the working class in, and the right who have equal contempt for them but want to utilise them as useful idiots…starting with the Daily Mail trying to rile up xenophobic sentiment on its back pages this morning.

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Most people on the left are working class, Labour is a working class movement, so are the socailist Workers etc - i admit Momentum is a bit more studenty but I think that will fade out anyway

yes the right wing media (which is far by far most of it in this country) try and make being working class synonymous with being right wing and nationalist

but you can't tell me there's a fair few people in this country who don't think "I want England to win because I'm English and it's fun to cheer on your national team"

instead they think "I want England to win because England are the best country with the best football team"

we all know if England had pubbed the Euros there would have been none of "we were lucky" and all of "we deserved to win" etc

That's what I personally object to, it is a form of supremicism and in these decisive days it's yet more fuel to those who want to fracture society and impose mob rule

No I disagree completely, the current modern left is in no way working class whatsoever. It’s middle class, urban and city dwelling and university educated.

The old working class left has long since abandoned the left because of the way it looks down on them. This is especially true in America, where the vast majority of people who work in unionised labour are Trump supporters…and Trump is popular in the former industrial heartlands which used to massively Democrat voters but the Democrats instead now appeal to the professional class who live either in cities or the suburbs. And this is why they struggle more in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania and they are doing well in more gentrified states like Virginia, Colorado which used to be heavily Republican.


It’s cultural divergence.


On the whole England fan matter, when you go to the Emirates stadium and the fans start chanting “we are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen?” do you think the fanbase mean that literally or do you think it’s just hyperbole.

Every fan base thinks they have the greatest team, the Brazilians, the Germans, The Argentines etc. You can argue that because we haven’t had success we should be more humble but that’s not how football fandom works.

Despite the media’s attempts to paint England fans as thugs based on historical reputation, the fact of the matter is our travelling support are people from all walks of life going to a different country to enjoy themselves, support the national team and hope that it lasts as long as possible.

Not sure it’s something I’d do myself (although I do want to try and go to North America in 2026, not so much for England but to both catch up with family and see a World Cup match…as one of the venues Levi Stadium (the 49ers stadium) is quite near where family members of mine live) but I don’t see the need to sneer at it.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

instead they think "I want England to win because England are the best country with the best football team"

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I'm not saying that no-one thinks that way, but I don't think it's as common as it used to be.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

No I disagree completely, the current modern left is in no way working class whatsoever. It’s middle class, urban and city dwelling and university educated.

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I know a lot of Labour members and that is not true I'm afraid, you're just resorting to a cliche

yes the preppy advisers and quite a few of the MPs are university educated, but not the movement itself

i get some lifelong Labour households went Tory during the Thatcher era and then post-2016, but still, those involved in the left movement are often working class

and that's the point, we're not talking about voters, but actual followers of the rank-and-file movement

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Originally Posted by Mac76

I know a lot of Labour members and that is not true I'm afraid, you're just resorting to a cliche

yes the preppy advisers and quite a few of the MPs are university educated, but not the movement itself

i get some lifelong Labour households went Tory during the Thatcher era and then post-2016, but still, those involved in the left movement are often working class

and that's the point, we're not talking about voters, but actual followers of the rank-and-file movement

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I used to be a Labour Party member and if anything what I’ve said applies even more to the rank and file movement. It’s not perhaps relevant as to be a member of any political party in this day and age is something a middle class political hobbyist would be…..despite what Oscar Wilde stated it’s not just socialism that takes up too many evenings.

The Labour Party is a progressive party, which means like with many parties on the left its core base tends to be those who regard themselves as socially progressive, where as previously it concerned itself more with representation of the working man. Because the type of work that usually involved unionised labour largely doesn’t exist anymore and because unions are largely a form of racketeering in this country, the actual worker who works in service, retail etc are not represented.
Where as those who join Labour are as I say from the professional arts subject at university class.
And I’m saying this as someone who is middle class and educated….

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I used to be a Labour Party member and if anything what I’ve said applies even more to the rank and file movement. It’s not perhaps relevant as to be a member of any political party in this day and age is something a middle class political hobbyist would be…..despite what Oscar Wilde stated it’s not just socialism that takes up too many evenings.

The Labour Party is a progressive party, which means like with many parties on the left its core base tends to be those who regard themselves as socially progressive, where as previously it concerned itself more with representation of the working man. Because the type of work that usually involved unionised labour largely doesn’t exist anymore and because unions are largely a form of racketeering in this country, the actual worker who works in service, retail etc are not represented.
Where as those who join Labour are as I say from the professional arts subject at university class.
And I’m saying this as someone who is middle class and educated….

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And I'm saying as someone who knows a lot of Labour members in more than one area that you're wrong :)

yes it has its fair share of the type of people you desceribe but it's still in my experience predominantly working class

although i despair at the fact that this country is still so class-based, I thought the whole point of Thatcher was to reduce the class divide, but thanks to the seterotype of 'working class values' reinforced by the media - from Eastenders to teh SUn - its still with us and one of the worst things about this country

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Originally Posted by Mac76

And I'm saying as someone who knows a lot of Labour members in more than one area that you're wrong :)

yes it has its fair share of the type of people you desceribe but it's still in my experience predominantly working class

although i despair at the fact that this country is still so class-based, I thought the whole point of Thatcher was to reduce the class divide, but thanks to the seterotype of 'working class values' reinforced by the media - from Eastenders to teh SUn - its still with us and one of the worst things about this country

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Ah I see you’re doing that thing again where you assert something despite paucity of evidence.


And again no the opposite is true, despite the fact social mobility is far lower than it should be…the old stratified class system does not in fact exist as it did, and when people identify as working class what they are doing is scarcely different from a teenager with pink hair identifying as non binary. It’s nothing new, Harold Wilson used to cosplay being working class despite being an academic elitist. The difference between him and the people you know is that he was aware this was an illusion.

As I said earlier today, we don’t share contiguous reality…..I live in the real world and you live in some construct that has been manufactured as part of a collaborative effort between Alan Bleasdale and Ken Loach which Ben Elton wants to turn into a musical

Getting the pundit class doing performative bitching because an Englishman wasn’t chosen

I personally don’t care that much, I think on balance it’s better to have an English coach because the coach of successful national sides usually is a citizen of that nation.

So there’s a prestige element. But ultimately for that to be tenable you need more ex players prepared to get into coaching rather than the comfortable pundit job when their playing career is over (Rooney may be a dickhead, but he’s prepared to give it a go in the championship) and you also need more premier league clubs prepared to give English coaches an opportunity.

We have four from 20 English coaches in the premier league. That tells you why we have a German coach

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

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Precisely

Yeah I like to see English Arsenal players as well, but like with English England coach it’s a would like, rather than must have