I believe coming 4th perpetually where we once used to lament coming 2nd is simply venerated mediocrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
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I believe coming 4th perpetually where we once used to lament coming 2nd is simply venerated mediocrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Yes. Which rather makes a nonsense of the rest of your post :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
My position isn't that hard to understand:
Wenger's time with us is clearly coming to an end but:
a) Things aren't nearly as bad as some people make out and he is not as bad a manager as some on here are making out. Last year we finished 4th (as always!) and we won the FA Cup. It was, overall, a pretty good season. This season we have been patchy at best so far but Chelsea aside no-one has really gone off like a train. We're only 4 points off City in 2nd and we have a run of very winnable games coming up after which things may look quite different. This was our first league defeat of the season and it was against a side who are looking like they might walk the lead this season (don't think they will, it's very early days, long way to go yet). As always, some people are over-reacting.
b) There is absolutely no point in replacing Wenger with someone who will do worse. How does that make any sense at all? Obviously there is no guarantee that someone else will come in and do better but some people act like any bumbling idiot ™ would come in and we'd be loads better. Wenger is a pretty safe pair of hands, we'll probably keep finishing 4th under him. We should be aiming higher but I see no benefit in replacing him with someone likely to do worse and there's no hurry to replace him, so long as we keep finishing in the top 4 we have a good platform for any future manager.
That was before we had 2 clubs buying their way in to the top 4. The top 2 will probably be City and Chelsea this year and with their resources it bloody well should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
One of the best posts ever.. especially the part in bold. Wenger trumps whatever crap we are producing as the best in the world. He serves us canned tuna for 100$ and expects us to behave like he has given us caviar.
Does he? Care to elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
But they didnt buy the title this season.. nor did they last season. We outspent both teams this season, so whats the excuse? Let's take expenses out of the equation for one second and see how horrible our football is... you cannot tell me that a team with Welbeck, Sanchez, Ozil, Wilshere, Ox, Cazorla should not be expected to have ONE shot on goal!Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Answer this question... Do you think it is acceptable that after paying the highest ticket prices in world football, we should not at least expect to be entertained? Or even challenge the top teams? Sure, we wont win all the games but you and everyone knew that we would be lucky to get a draw out of this game. In what world is that acceptable?
Yes, he has said on multiple occasions how getting fourth place is like a trophy. He makes us feel like we should be glad we got 4th place. He talks about spirit and togetherness of the team as being exceptional (time and time again). If the recent squads spirit is exceptional, I'd like to see a broken spirited team. None of the players fight for each other.. on most days, we do not even turn up in the first half! IF that is not the managers job then I dont know what is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Be honest, in light of what we've seen in the past, do you think we'll see a turn around and we'll push on to challenge for the title?Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
It's early days but we can no longer use that misdirection tactic and point to the flaws of our rivals whilst looking past our own. It really doesn't matter that our rivals have been inconsistent, we're on level points with Liverpool and the rest are above us.
Oh behave. You look at the money they've spent over a sustained period. City won the title last season after a sustained period of spending way beyond their means. You answer me this: would they have won the title without the billionaire owner spunking money around over the last few years? The answer to that is obvious so yes, yes they did buy the title. Were they a business who had to play by business rules they'd have gone bust. Were FFP to have any bite they'd be docked so many points they'd have no hope of winning the league. As it is they just had to pay a bribe/fine and on they go.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
Teams like Chelsea are able to stockpile players to the point where they can not just build better squads than anyone could if they had to live within their means, they employ far more cynical tactics than just outbidding other teams. Chelsea buy up players and then loan them out to non-rivals to make it even harder to compete with them.
( http://www.theguardian.com/football/...-west-football )
City's owners have bought other clubs where they can stockpile players thus ensuring rivals don't get them.
It's not an 'excuse' to say it's very difficult to compete with clubs who can do this sort of thing. You seriously think another manager is going to waltz in and we'll be winning the league? You're kidding yourself.
I agree with the rest of your post. Our football isn't good at the moment and we should be playing more like we did against Galatasaray who might not be much good but they're probably no worse than a lot of the PL sides we'll face. That game showed we can do it, it's frustrating we don't do it more.
As for what Wenger says. He does spout a load of bollocks, granted, but he's never been one to publicly criticise his players and nor should he, IMO. Like it or not 4th place is important because of the way the CL works, it's not like a trophy obviously but see above about Wenger spouting bollocks and I don't see how you equate that with claiming he: 'trumps whatever crap we are producing best in the world'. 4th shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions but I've explained why I feel it's difficult to do better than 3rd. I think we should be closer, I think our football should be better, but we're hardly mid-table or worse and we did win the FA Cup less than 5 months ago.
I would have thought my previous statement rather answered your question, obviously stating that my dog can see that Wenger is NOT the person to push us forward is not Unequivocal enough for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
My point is that everything has to be put in it's proper perspective, whilst it is frustrating seeing Wenger make the same mistakes over and over again. Personal frustration cannot be equated with Crisis, that's when managers get sacked.
I have stated previously that he should have been encouraged to go out on a high at the end of last season, but the fact remains he has a contract until 2017 and unless 4th place is in jeopardy there is no question of him being sacked....and there still isn't huge appetite from the fans to push him before he jumps even though that more or less all of them acknowledge that we almost certainly won't win the title back in that period of time.
Is it ideal?....no not really... but barring terminal cancer i feel i can wait three years.
Saying that, might be a good reason to quit smoking :)
But I didn't ask if you thought Wenger was the right guy for the job. I was referring to your comment about our rivals dropping points. It shouldn't matter that they're dropping points, especially when most of them are above us already. Pointing to their performances in light of our own doesn't put anything into perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
"Be honest, in light of what we've seen in the past, do you think we'll see a turn around and we'll push on to challenge for the title?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Challenging for the title for me would be taking us forward would it not?....therefore as i don't think Wenger will take us forward i don't think we will challenge for the title. What i mean by putting things in their perspective is because of the results of the teams around us, we aren't in crisis. Is that a surging endorsement of the manager?....no not really but my point is that it doesn't really prompt any great appetite from the vast majority of people who attend the Emirates game in, game out for his immediate removal either.
If i remember correctly given that this isn't the referendum topic, the conversation veered into why there is no great clamor at games for the manager to be removed. Firstly my point was that in the last 12 months we have faired reasonably well at home, and secondly whilst there is frustration that we aren't reaching our full potential a lot of the rumbling was more based around selling our best players and not bringing in players of any real quality to replace them.
Both quite putrid and I'd actually might even prefer to waste the gold on the tinned tuna and that is revolting as it is. Choosing one to buy and eat is a little like deciding which testicle you want smashed to smithereens. In the end it a detestable experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
I know this is entirely besides the point. :d
I'll ask you a question... lets say Abramovich or Abu Dhabi did not come in whenever it was, do you think City or Chelsea would EVER have won anything? The format and money of CL is such that there was really only 3 teams- Liverpool, Utd and us who had a chance to win. Yes, I accept that that a sustained period of spending took them above us but I think that in the last 2 seasons we had the financial power to be very close to them. Especially with FFP, these teams cannot add players as they 'wish'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Like I said, I am not saying we beat them left right and center (it'd be great if we could).. all I am asking is that a team filled with that much talent at least entertain and put in an effort. And this is not an ask only because of this match, this is ALL I ever asked of the manager.. and he has failed to deliver that consistently over the last many seasons. Like I said.. for his salary and the ticket prices we pay, Arsenal Football club deserves a manager who can do that and Wenger is NOT the answer!
No, obviously not. The whole way football is set up is designed to keep the top clubs up there. No-one can break into the top 4 without serious investment.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
I don't blame City or Chelsea for doing what they've done, I do blame their idiot fans for strutting around crowing as though it's an achievement though.
We do now have the financial power to compete with them better than we have been able to previously and that new financial power has seen a change in transfer policy. Ozil last year (whatever you think of how he's done, that was a major signing which showed some real intent), this year we've signed Sanchez, Chambers and Welbeck, none of whom were cheap. But before that we were tied into poor commercial deals which were signed in order to guarantee stadium repayments and, while we all agree Wenger was probably too conservative in that era, we were not able to spend like some of our rivals. Now some of those constraints have been lifted we've started spending accordingly.
FFP has been a joke. As I said, City flouted it and what was their 'punishment'? A fine.
A fine! They fined a team who have infinite money :lol: What kind of punishment is that? No points docked, no ban from any competitions, just a pay off. They might as well have called it a bribe and be done with it.
Plus they can get around it buy buying other clubs or loaning players out and stockpiling players elsewhere. Whatever our commercial deals it will always be difficult for us to properly compete.
Agree about effort and entertainment and with the talent we have we should be doing better than we have so far this season. That said...we're 4 points off 2nd place. No-one has been that consistent so far apart from Chelsea. We have a run of winnable games coming up. It's very early days yet. Wenger was never getting sacked after last season, this season we've been wobbling but it's far too early to be pushing the panic button just yet.
I do. Just as everyone would have blamed us if we'd allowed Saddam Hussein to buy the club. A Russian mobster and a bunch of Arab thieves? Kind of predictable wht these bastards would do to the game.Quote:
I don't blame City or Chelsea for doing what they've done
Same here. Our footie is boring shit, excluding those few moments when the individuals rise above the drab tactics. I want the exciting football back more than I want trophies.Quote:
Like I said, I am not saying we beat them left right and center (it'd be great if we could).. all I am asking is that a team filled with that much talent at least entertain and put in an effort.
Fair enough, but it's easy to take the moral high ground when we were one of the 'haves'. What was the other option if they wanted to get up there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Work like we did. Build a fan base like we did. Work on home-grown talent and a world class scouting network like we did. Build a sustainable model, like we did. Over time, like we did. A decade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We did it at a time when the gaps between the haves and have nots was small enough that you could do that, right now I don't believe it's possible.
Because the dirty gypos and the dirty chavs came in and bought so much cement that nothing can move now. Liverpool had a dynasty, Utd were nowhere. Then Utd had a dynasty, Liverpool were nowhere. Arsenal, Everton, even Aston Villa intervened in that time period and nothing to say that what has always gone on in football would not have continued. Even now, Utd with their billions aren't glued to the top and are still in the realms of reality, albeit with plenty of resources in their favour. But you imagine they could still be clawed back and in fact we have seen it. One bad decision and they drop out of Europe. You can't see it ever happening with the dopers and glory purchasers - they are here to stay and it's their cash that has done it for them. They are bad for the game and with their latest trick of buying up clubs to hoard 5, 6, 7 teams from which to do their dodgy Lampard style deals it's only going to get worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Wenger's high points are 1,The Invincibles & the early success. 2, Great passing football. 3, The Stadium move. 4, Consistent C.L qualification.
The C.L. qualification has continued although it seems to get tougher every year & on top of that we are now consistently getting nowhere in the competition.
When he arrived, he inherited a solid defence + Mr Bergkamp. He added the likes of Viera, Henry, Overmars, Petite & Freddy to assemble what has to be best Premier team ever, we went unbeaten & we did it in style. This was done prior to the Chavs money kicking in & when United were the only real opposition.
The stadium move is undoubtedly fantastic for the future, we know he played a huge part in this but in my opinion it could & should have been done with him playing a minor role. His only real interest should have been to make sure we stayed competitive, which meant making sure investing in the team was not hindered by stadium repayments.
Apart from C.L qualification, every else we thank him for happened a decade ago - football has changed, for the worse, due to money but it is what it is. The legend of Wenger is built on the early success & we have to remember we were winning titles with George Graham only a few years earlier. He made some decent signings, ones we could afford & he certainly took our football to another level but what he did wasn't a "miracle". In the past decade the most consistent thing about Wenger is the inability to compete at the level we were before. In any other business, this stagnation would result in a fresh face at the top. The longer the decision is left alone through fear of the unknown & the comfort of 4th place will result in others pulling further away & others overtaking.
The football was a miracle though. Best I have ever seen. Maybe his biggest mistake is trying to recreate what simply can't be achieved again. Maybe that was the best it gets.
You could be right - Maureens boring defensive mode means through all the Chavs success, its been shit to watch. I think City were certainly close last year when they were hammering teams every week with great attacking play but the Henry/Bergkamp partnership was truly a thing of beauty & we may never see anything like that again in our lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Football RIP :rose:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Thing is though, he's not even been trying to recreate it. That team was full of powerful athletes who could simply run the opposition into the ground, nothing like what we've seen since say, 2006, when he started bringing in the wave of smaller technical players and changed the style of play. Pace and power™ has always had the edge in this league, so I don't know why he's gone down a different path despite having barely any success with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
They took it to a new level but with the CL money keeping a group of teams at the top it was already very difficult before they did that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Agreed - he decided he wanted to follow the Barca route instead. The problem is that they had world class players in all forward positions, many of whom had grown up together. Wenger thought he could teach this to "bargain buys" & still does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
To "over-play" in boggy, damp pitches in the English winter is only going to result in disaster.
I agree its early days and its not because of that I say that I want Wenger out. I say that because we have been having the same conversation for many years now. Simple question, Based on what has happened in the last 5 years, do you think we will improve our style of football or put in more effort by the end of this season under AW? If yes, I'd like to know the reason for that thought process. If no, then why are we not looking to replace him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I am not sure I understand the criticism of Mou's 'defensive mode'. His teams play defensive mode against the big teams but against other opposition, they score a bagful of goals. I think 'parking the bus' is a stereotype that has stuck to them. If I were a neutral, I'd prefer watching Chelsea over Arsenal. I am not exaggerating when I say that our football is absolutely atrocious on most days. Pass front, then side, then back, then side, then back, then front... no penetration, no direct play! In fact, AW is lucky in this respect over Mou that the stereotype of Arsenal playing 'beautiful football' has stuck with us. The last time I remember we played beautiful football consistently over a season was the 07/08 season... Its been a pile of manure since then!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
I think we are such a mess as far as what our Board would describe as 'product' that they won't effectively replace Wenger even when he does decide to leave.
I've just got fuck all confidence in our Board and Management to get anything right.
We soon got found out playing the way we used to, the opposition learnt to adapt to nullify us when we were attacking. Remember those games where we would have 20 shots on target and not score and even on the odd occasion the other team would go up the other end and nick a win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
It is a no, but from the board's point of view it's because he's meeting the board's targets for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
From the fans point of view, most of us do think he needs replacing, but it has to be done in a controlled way and not with someone who is likely to do worse.
At least that was good to watch.. it sucks watching us play teams like Norwich and have one shot on target for 90 minutes. If we have to get 4th, at least play football which will entertain the fans. No point playing the shit we do..Quote:
Originally Posted by adzzzbatch
There is no guarantee of who will do worse or who wont.. yes, look for someone qualified but there is no one- not even SAF or Mou who can guarantee any team success. Let this be not a reason for not replacing Wenger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I'd be very interested to know what 'controlled' to you means..
It means not done in a panic mid-season after a couple of poor results with no real plan what to do next.
Like Spurs do every other year.
It means banning the media and throwing away newspapers and switching off the cunt pundits, ignoring the fans and beginning negotiations with the right man well before Wenger is due to step down (or step up). A nice smooth transition that leaves the media scratching their heads because they never had a whiff of it. Like another appointment I remember. Also that fat bastard crook we have lurking in the wings needs to be kept well out of the picture.
I have written off this season already.. so assuming everything goes according to 'plan' and we barely scrape 4th place by May, would the time between now and May be considered a good time to find a replacement? Personally I do not care if its mid season or post season as we are not winning anything this year, so might as well make the call now. The only problem is that Wenger has the board cupped by the balls and those people are not going to fire him. Best solution is for me (and a lot of other people) to write off the next 3 years and hope Wenger does not sign another new contract.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
:banghead: :crying:
Sorry, but he's not going anywhere for at least another 2.75 seasons. Guaranteed.
:ilt: