Match Reaction vs Swansea

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

My point is the transfers that were undertaken were done in a much more timely manner, I'm sure Wenger spoke with Sanchez and his agent in Brazil (I'm not for a second saying Sanchez was signed without Wengers permission) but I think Wenger was more instrumental in convincing Sanchez in coming to us, and Dick Law was more responsible for agreeing a fee with Barcelona and agreeing a wage with player and agent. Yes of course speculative on my part, but compare it to the farago with Real Madrid and Higuain the previous summer and something has changed.

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How is the Sanchez signing any different to Ozil? Two world class attacking players we'd be crazy to turn down. Those aren't hard choices for Wenger. We've got two extremes when it comes to our transfer policy. The Sanchez and Ozil deals show great progress but on the other end of the spectrum we have rubbish like Kallstrom and our current CB situation. I don't know how much has really changed behind the scenes because we've always been quick to snap up players Wenger really wants and by the time it hits the press, it's a done deal. We've already tabled the bid and in the advance stages such as our most recent deals with Giroud, Pod, Gervinho or going as far back as Rosicky and Reyes.

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Originally Posted by BOBN

A man who wouldnt fly to games, a TV pundit and a person whos been bald since his 20s (who will international fans and players graviate to? Movie star Mourinho or the dour no-name guy?). Get real m8.

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Why are we not talking about how Chambers is looking like Jenkinson 2.0? Wenger needs to quit shopping in Chavland to be down with the Chavs and give serious defenders a go. Bellerins turn now surely.

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If I had to guess I'd say we're not talking about Chambers as looking like Jenkinson 2.0 because he's nothing like him, in appearance or in the way he plays. One poor game doesn't mean we need to hit the transfer market. Jenks is doing okay too, holding down his place in the team above us in the league.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

How is the Sanchez signing any different to Ozil? Two world class attacking players we'd be crazy to turn down. Those aren't hard choices for Wenger. We've got two extremes when it comes to our transfer policy. The Sanchez and Ozil deals show great progress but on the other end of the spectrum we have rubbish like Kallstrom and our current CB situation. I don't know how much has really changed behind the scenes because we've always been quick to snap up players Wenger really wants and by the time it hits the press, it's a done deal. We've already tabled the bid and in the advance stages such as our most recent deals with Giroud, Pod, Gervinho or going as far back as Rosicky and Reyes.

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Difference is Ozil was a panic buy to mollify the fans where as Sanchez was a signing in a position we needed

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying for a second that the board are buying players that Wenger doesn't want that's what Spurs do with their director of football. I'm saying maybe with these big signings (and possibly this includes Ozil) that the manager is stating what player he wants and the club agrees the price rather than the manager.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

If I had to guess I'd say we're not talking about Chambers as looking like Jenkinson 2.0 because he's nothing like him, in appearance or in the way he plays. One poor game doesn't mean we need to hit the transfer market. Jenks is doing okay too, holding down his place in the team above us in the league.

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Precisely I think both Chambers and Jenkinson are good enough for Arsenal

I think if Chambers is played at centre back and we buy one more centre back we'd have a well balanced defence.

Well apart from Monreal, he is a poor left back let alone centre back

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Difference is Ozil was a panic buy to mollify the fans where as Sanchez was a signing in a position we needed

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying for a second that the board are buying players that Wenger doesn't want that's what Spurs do with their director of football. I'm saying maybe with these big signings (and possibly this includes Ozil) that the manager is stating what player he wants and the club agrees the price rather than the manager.

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We needed Sanchez just as much as we needed Ozil. We already had players for those positions but we've made room for quality but that's besides the point. So you're suggesting Wenger has been taken out of the negotiation process or deciding factor on the price. It's possible but Ozil and Sanchez aren't the best of examples. You don't shop in Harrods to try and haggle on prices or go to a Ferrari lot to ask how much one of their cars cost. With certain World Class players, you just know you're going to have to spend £30m and above on the transfer plus over £110k in wages. Just the mention of those players names and you know they'll cost money because they're well known world class players. I doubt anyone could tell Wenger that such players would be expensive and he'd be surprised. He'd know the cost and I doubt he'd question it. You usually get what you pay for. They are Super super quality in Wenger terms.

Th problem comes with players he's not so certain about and players that aren't so well known. Or non attacking players that aren't valued as much in football. The not so 'super super quality' players. It doesn't seem as though Wenger values the art of defending and besides on the pitch you can see it in the transers. It's probably why he thinks he can convert someone like Monreal into a CB and why he won't pay serious money for CB's and DM's in general. This is where we get stuck and the value of the player isn't as obvious. I don't think much has changed in terms of signings or we'd have bought players for CB and DM. They are crucial areas that we always seem to dither on.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

We needed Sanchez just as much as we needed Ozil. We already had players for those positions but we've made room for quality but that's besides the point. So you're suggesting Wenger has been taken out of the negotiation process or deciding factor on the price. It's possible but Ozil and Sanchez aren't the best of examples. You don't shop in Harrods to try and haggle on prices or go to a Ferrari lot to ask how much one of their cars cost. With certain World Class players, you just know you're going to have to spend £30m and above on the transfer plus over £110k in wages. Just the mention of those players names and you know they'll cost money because they're well known world class players. I doubt anyone could tell Wenger that such players would be expensive and he'd be surprised. He'd know the cost and I doubt he'd question it. You usually get what you pay for. They are Super super quality in Wenger terms.

Th problem comes with players he's not so certain about and players that aren't so well known. Or non attacking players that aren't valued as much in football. The not so 'super super quality' players. It doesn't seem as though Wenger values the art of defending and besides on the pitch you can see it in the transers. It's probably why he thinks he can convert someone like Monreal into a CB and why he won't pay serious money for CB's and DM's in general. This is where we get stuck and the value of the player isn't as obvious. I don't think much has changed in terms of signings or we'd have bought players for CB and DM. They are crucial areas that we always seem to dither on.

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:gp:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

We needed Sanchez just as much as we needed Ozil. We already had players for those positions but we've made room for quality but that's besides the point. So you're suggesting Wenger has been taken out of the negotiation process or deciding factor on the price. It's possible but Ozil and Sanchez aren't the best of examples. You don't shop in Harrods to try and haggle on prices or go to a Ferrari lot to ask how much one of their cars cost. With certain World Class players, you just know you're going to have to spend £30m and above on the transfer plus over £110k in wages. Just the mention of those players names and you know they'll cost money because they're well known world class players. I doubt anyone could tell Wenger that such players would be expensive and he'd be surprised. He'd know the cost and I doubt he'd question it. You usually get what you pay for. They are Super super quality in Wenger terms.

Th problem comes with players he's not so certain about and players that aren't so well known. Or non attacking players that aren't valued as much in football. The not so 'super super quality' players. It doesn't seem as though Wenger values the art of defending and besides on the pitch you can see it in the transers. It's probably why he thinks he can convert someone like Monreal into a CB and why he won't pay serious money for CB's and DM's in general. This is where we get stuck and the value of the player isn't as obvious. I don't think much has changed in terms of signings or we'd have bought players for CB and DM. They are crucial areas that we always seem to dither on.

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I don't disagree in anyway, I am speculating but comparing Higuain and Ozil and Sanchez there does seem to be a difference between an ultimately fruitless saga and two quickly completed deals.

My speculation leads me to ask the question, if the Board have shown that they can intercede with Wenger than why aren't they doing it more often. If Wenger had a list of defenders he wanted, why didnt they just go out and get them....I'm convinced Wenger wouldn't resign if he didnt control every aspect of the transfer and if he did than frankly we are better off without him (win/win)

The fact is that the board is just as incompitent as the manager they unequivocally support, and this is shown that even in a business sense we are not as we might be; our match day revenue is high as our television revenues for stumbling into the champions league. But other than this our commercial revenues are no where near the level the top clubs in Europe are making and this is a result of a risk adverse model. The only way to be on the same level as Bayern Munich, Manchester United of this world is success on the pitch.
But instead they allow themselves to be duped by a man just looking to add further to his own financial portfolio.
Wenger is a problem, but he's not the only problem......

The worrying thing is that he isn't even going after any players in positions that need covering. CDM has been a problem since Flamini left in 08, and he's finished as a player now.

Even signing someone like Diame from West Ham would've been an upgrade on what we currently have.

And we were heavily linked to that defender Roma bought, and why did they buy him? Because they offered £2m more :lol:

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Would Bergkamp really be expected to attend every single European match?

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:doh: :haha:

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

:doh: :haha:

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Does Wengers entire back room staff follow him all over the continent or are they in fact based at London Colney?.

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Originally Posted by Munchies

The worrying thing is that he isn't even going after any players in positions that need covering. CDM has been a problem since Flamini left in 08, and he's finished as a player now.

Even signing someone like Diame from West Ham would've been an upgrade on what we currently have.

And we were heavily linked to that defender Roma bought, and why did they buy him? Because they offered £2m more :lol:

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Well yes and again this is where the board should be stepping in and saying "Arsene let us worry about the price"

I agree about Diame, i think West Ham were mad to sell him especially to Hull

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I don't disagree in anyway, I am speculating but comparing Higuain and Ozil and Sanchez there does seem to be a difference between an ultimately fruitless saga and two quickly completed deals.

My speculation leads me to ask the question, if the Board have shown that they can intercede with Wenger than why aren't they doing it more often. If Wenger had a list of defenders he wanted, why didnt they just go out and get them....I'm convinced Wenger wouldn't resign if he didnt control every aspect of the transfer and if he did than frankly we are better off without him (win/win)

The fact is that the board is just as incompitent as the manager they unequivocally support, and this is shown that even in a business sense we are not as we might be; our match day revenue is high as our television revenues for stumbling into the champions league. But other than this our commercial revenues are no where near the level the top clubs in Europe are making and this is a result of a risk adverse model. The only way to be on the same level as Bayern Munich, Manchester United of this world is success on the pitch.
But instead they allow themselves to be duped by a man just looking to add further to his own financial portfolio.
Wenger is a problem, but he's not the only problem......

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We pulled out of Higuain because of Suarez. The Suarez deal turned sour and moved for Ozil instead. Higaun is a good player but he's not elite status super 'duper' quality. A good player that I'd have been happy with but if you find out Suarez has a £40m buyout clause....that's why that deal fell flat. We pulled out.

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My speculation leads me to ask the question, if the Board have shown that they can intercede with Wenger than why aren't they doing it more often. If Wenger had a list of defenders he wanted, why didnt they just go out and get them....I'm convinced Wenger wouldn't resign if he didnt control every aspect of the transfer and if he did than frankly we are better off without him (win/win)

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I answered this one yesterday.

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Wenger said: "The only important thing is the club is run properly in every department. The most important department in any football club is what is happening on the pitch.

"As long as whoever owns the club doesn't interfere with what we do on the pitch, then for me it's OK.

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So if Wenger doesn't like the sound of defender A, B and C, what are they supposed to do? If he tells Ivan Chambers and Monreal are good enough to cover Vermaelen, what is Ivan supposed to tell him? 'No they are not'? You've seen how dismissive Wenger gets with people with no experience in management. I doubt he'd be that flippant with Ivan but there is an understanding that he runs the technical side without interference.

Yes, the Board have a responsibility but they've inherited this guy. I don't think Silent Stan cares but I think Ivan is leaving him to fall on his own sword. We've brought in a new fitness coach and scout and from what I've heard, we're not making the best use of them. Wenger can't say he doesn't get the support because he does and it seems like most of the fans and media have now stopped looking in the other direction when it comes to our problems. If he's wholly responsible for the technical side and that's how he wants it, it's on him to deliver results. Now with the stadium almost paid off, we may see a different standard set for the club.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Well yes and again this is where the board should be stepping in and saying "Arsene let us worry about the price"

I agree about Diame, i think West Ham were mad to sell him especially to Hull

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And Wenger lets Jenkinson go to West Ham, then doesn't even play Bellerin there which results in all of our back line messing up :doh:

And probably the biggest clanger was not signing Cesc.

We all thought it'd be okay if that money was invested into a top CDM/CB.

Atleast Flamini is leaving at the end of the season

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

We pulled out of Higuain because of Suarez. The Suarez deal turned sour and moved for Ozil instead. Higaun is a good player but he's not elite status super 'duper' quality. A good player that I'd have been happy with but if you find out Suarez has a £40m buyout clause....that's why that deal fell flat. We pulled out.



I answered this one yesterday.



So if Wenger doesn't like the sound of defender A, B and C, what are they supposed to do? If he tells Ivan Chambers and Monreal are good enough to cover Vermaelen, what is Ivan supposed to tell him? 'No they are not'? You've seen how dismissive Wenger gets with people with no experience in management. I doubt he'd be that flippant with Ivan but there is an understanding that he runs the technical side without interference.

Yes, the Board have a responsibility but they've inherited this guy. I don't think Silent Stan cares but I think Ivan is leaving him to fall on his own sword. We've brought in a new fitness coach and scout and from what I've heard, we're not making the best use of them. Wenger can't say he doesn't get the support because he does and it seems like most of the fans and media have now stopped looking in the other direction when it comes to our problems. If he's wholly responsible for the technical side and that's how he wants it, it's on him to deliver results. Now with the stadium almost paid off, we may see a different standard set for the club.

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I'm not sure that's the case, Wenger came out after selling Vermaelen and was asked about replacing him and said that we needed to because it left the defence short.

Kostas Manolas, Sokratis Papastatoupolos were two of the defenders on our radar and as another poster pointed out Manolas joined Roma because they were prepared to pay two million more. So yes if the board sit idly by and let Wenger sit on his hands, prevaricate other a couple of million here and there they are just as culpable as the manager.

The buck stops at the top, they are his employers.....

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Originally Posted by Munchies

And probably the biggest clanger was not signing Cesc.

We all thought it'd be okay if that money was invested into a top CDM/CB.

Atleast Flamini is leaving at the end of the season

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For the life of me I don't understand the Cesc argument, the clear fact is we are already unbalanced with central midfielders of his ilk, we should have bought a physical holding player unquestionably but the whole clamour for Cesc seems to be about who he would join if we didnt sign him rather than anything else.

I'd have signed Cesc and taken the hit on Ozil.

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Originally Posted by Munchies

And probably the biggest clanger was not signing Cesc.

We all thought it'd be okay if that money was invested into a top CDM/CB.

Atleast Flamini is leaving at the end of the season

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Not soon enough if you ask me. This guy is so tactically indisciplined that I'm even wondering whether a useless Coq might not be a better option. He's just gone out on loan to Charlton though.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

For the life of me I don't understand the Cesc argument, the clear fact is we are already unbalanced with central midfielders of his ilk, we should have bought a physical holding player unquestionably but the whole clamour for Cesc seems to be about who he would join if we didnt sign him rather than anything else.

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Well we have Wenger in charge so although we all know that's what we need it just won't happen.

We currently play Arteta and Flamini as our defending midfielders. You could argue that Cesc can defend just the same as them, but also has the ability of contributing to our attack unlike Arteta/Flamini.

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Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw

I'd have signed Cesc and taken the hit on Ozil.

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if we signed Cesc we probably wouldn't have signed Welbeck and just pushed Sanchez up top with Cesc and Ozil in behind (when Ozil was fit)

What I don't understand with Wenger was when he first came to Arsenal he knew the value of a strong back 4 as he had one already made plus signed guys like Lauren and Campbell. He also signed guys like Vieira/Petit big imposing Central midfielders. So why has he changed, football hasn't moved on that much that these guys wouldn't be quality players now.

I am totally baffled as to why he doesn't do this anymore.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I'm not sure that's the case, Wenger came out after selling Vermaelen and was asked about replacing him and said that we needed to because it left the defence short.

Kostas Manolas, Sokratis Papastatoupolos were two of the defenders on our radar and as another poster pointed out Manolas joined Roma because they were prepared to pay two million more. So yes if the board sit idly by and let Wenger sit on his hands, prevaricate other a couple of million here and there they are just as culpable as the manager.

The buck stops at the top, they are his employers.....

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So the Board were able to 'convince' to spend £30m to £40m on Ozil and Sanchez but couldn't convince him to spend £10m on a defender? Do you know how crazy that sounds?

Wenger may have said we needed defenders but he always makes such statements and does nothing. The money is there available and it's not te Board's job to force him to spend. Alarm bells should have been ringing when he was trying out Monreal as CB in preseason.

Why would they back out of signing a defender in the summer but hand Wenger the funds for the winter window? Also, why did we loan out Jenkinson for the season when we are short on defenders? These are technical decisions.

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Originally Posted by Bumble

if we signed Cesc we probably wouldn't have signed Welbeck and just pushed Sanchez up top with Cesc and Ozil in behind (when Ozil was fit)

What I don't understand with Wenger was when he first came to Arsenal he knew the value of a strong back 4 as he had one already made plus signed guys like Lauren and Campbell. He also signed guys like Vieira/Petit big imposing Central midfielders. So why has he changed, football hasn't moved on that much that these guys wouldn't be quality players now.

I am totally baffled as to why he doesn't do this anymore.

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Besides Campbell who was a well known and obvious choice, he's always sucked at signing CB's and has always done it on the cheap. It's never been his strong point and he probably thinks he can pull another 'Kolo Toure' with Monreal.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

So the Board were able to 'convince' to spend £30m to £40m on Ozil and Sanchez but couldn't convince him to spend £10m on a defender? Do you know how crazy that sounds?

Wenger may have said we needed defenders but he always makes such statements and does nothing. The money is there available and it's not te Board's job to force him to spend. Alarm bells should have been ringing when he was trying out Monreal as CB in preseason.

Why would they back out of signing a defender in the summer but hand Wenger the funds for the winter window? Also, why did we loan out Jenkinson for the season when we are short on defenders? These are technical decisions.

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Why is it crazy?

Marquee signings like Ozil and Sanchez sell shirts and therefore they have a vested interest in seeing those deals go through.

I'm not saying the board backed out of signing a defender I just think they allowed Wenger to prevaricate.

They back the guy, so ultimately his inaction reflects on them as well as himself

These people aren't unwilling victims of Wenger dogma, they are his chief enablers

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Why is it crazy?

Marquee signings like Ozil and Sanchez sell shirts and therefore they have a vested interest in seeing those deals go through.

I'm not saying the board backed out of signing a defender I just think they allowed Wenger to prevaricate.

They back the guy, so ultimately his inaction reflects on them as well as himself

These people aren't unwilling victims of Wenger dogma, they are his chief enablers

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What about Debuchy and Chambers? They're not the sort of players that sell shirts but deals were done quickly.

His in action only reflects on himself. It only damages his own reputation and nobody is running stories that the club is run badly. If he knew what he was doing he's never agreed to letting Verm or Jenkinson go and even failing that, he could at least play Chambers as CB and someone else at RB.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Why is it crazy?

Marquee signings like Ozil and Sanchez sell shirts and therefore they have a vested interest in seeing those deals go through.

I'm not saying the board backed out of signing a defender I just think they allowed Wenger to prevaricate.

They back the guy, so ultimately his inaction reflects on them as well as himself

These people aren't unwilling victims of Wenger dogma, they are his chief enablers

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If you believe there has been a slight shift in how we do transfers and the board has more control, it's worth asking yourself how we drop the ball on the CB position but we're able to wrap up the Ozil and Sanchez deal in a 'timely manner'. Same goes for Chambers and Debuchy.

It's also worth considering Wenger's history with CB's. It's not great so are we even certain he had any firm targets in mind for the role.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Does Wengers entire back room staff follow him all over the continent or are they in fact based at London Colney?.

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No but his assistant does you fucking pleb.

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

No but his assistant does you fucking pleb.

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Did your mother influence you to talk like that when she was being sodomised by paying punters as you watched from your cot as a nipper?

Who said anything about Bergkamp being an assistant, I just said I'd like to see him as part of the coaching set up.

There's an old adage back home which says, "empty barrels make the most noise".

H_C_Z does appear to give loads of credence to this adage, imho.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

If you believe there has been a slight shift in how we do transfers and the board has more control, it's worth asking yourself how we drop the ball on the CB position but we're able to wrap up the Ozil and Sanchez deal in a 'timely manner'. Same goes for Chambers and Debuchy.

It's also worth considering Wenger's history with CB's. It's not great so are we even certain he had any firm targets in mind for the role.

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Again it's speculation on my part

Also we are talking about Ivan Gazidis here, a man who touts for business with a Russian Telecom company without even doing the most basic of research, which had he done so he would have discovered Alisher Usmanov owned.

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Originally Posted by Özil's Panoramic View

There's an old adage back home which says, "empty barrels make the most noise".

H_C_Z does appear to give loads of credence to this adage, imho.

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Because I think it's naive to think that the people who pay Wenger and back him without question are not in any way responsible for the mistakes he makes?.

I'd like to believe that Wenger is the only problem and that once he's gone we will be in paradise, but I'm an adult and disinclined to believe fairy stories.

Plus it's a bit rich coming from someone who advocates the Chelsea approach to hiring and firing managers

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Again it's speculation on my part

Also we are talking about Ivan Gazidis here, a man who touts for business with a Russian Telecom company without even doing the most basic of research, which had he done so he would have discovered Alisher Usmanov owned.

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Yes, the same guy that snapped up Ozil, Sanchez, Welbeck, Chambers and Debuchy in a 'timely fashion'. You can't have it both ways.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Because I think it's naive to think that the people who pay Wenger and back him without question are not in any way responsible for the mistakes he makes?.

I'd like to believe that Wenger is the only problem and that once he's gone we will be in paradise, but I'm an adult and disinclined to believe fairy stories.

Plus it's a bit rich coming from someone who advocates the Chelsea approach to hiring and firing managers

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Being disingenuous as per usual, eh?

I used the chavs and a few other clubs as examples of clubs that had undergone manager changes without becoming "unstable". I'm sure you remember that word you used as you sought to spread fear by manufacturing a crisis.

Nowhere did I advocate that we should copy their model and embed it into our Club, as you are trying to make it sound here.

Do carry on though, pal. Make some more noise.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Yes, the same guy that snapped up Ozil, Sanchez, Welbeck, Chambers and Debuchy in a 'timely fashion'. You can't have it both ways.

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Again I don't know that he did this, my theory is that comparatively these deals have been done quick and if he's capable of taking Wenger out of the loop on transfer value and price (which he would have delegated to Dick Law) than he is capable of being more assertive with Wenger on other things.

The other alternative explanation is that Wenger is as much involved in transfers as he's always been and the money is now avaliable to him not to need to haggle (like he did unsuccessfully with Mata, Baptista etc)

The blogger Le Grove made the point this morning, what would Wenger do if certain powers were taken from him? Wild he walk? (I somehow don't think he would) and if he did no big loss.

So regardless of whether Gazidis is interfering sporadically as I think he is, or whether Wenger is as much in charge as he always was. They are responsible for him

You can spin it any way you want HCZ. The main problem at the club is Wenger and his spaced out visions of what football is and what its finances should be. He goes and we get our sanity back. We all know the management is culpable given Sir Chips risible statement at the last AGM. In as much as they allowed the man to run amok and buy into his lowered expectations based on Wengers own diminishing grip on the game. The solution is not to dismantle the entire hierarchy at Arsenal. It is to get rid of the underperforming manager and build again.

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Originally Posted by Özil's Panoramic View

Being disingenuous as per usual, eh?

I used the chavs and a few other clubs as examples of clubs that had undergone manager changes without becoming "unstable". I'm sure you remember that word you used as you sought to spread fear by manufacturing a crisis.

Nowhere did I advocate that we should copy their model and embed it into our Club, as you are trying to make it sound here.

Do carry on though, pal. Make some more noise.

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Chelsea's mid season managerial changes does cause instability even in 2012 on one hand they win the European cup and on the other hand they finish behind spurs and Newcastle in the league?

It's also done wonders for Spurs I don't think

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't expect me to give it any "credence" to borrow your parlance.

Power_and_Glory doesn't agree with anything I say but he's prepared to attack the argument rather than the person. But obviously as you think I'm too idiotic to debate, you can't really be surprised if I'm dismissive of you.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

You can spin it any way you want HCZ. The main problem at the club is Wenger and his spaced out visions of what football is and what its finances should be. He goes and we get our sanity back. We all know the management is culpable given Sir Chips risible statement at the last AGM. In as much as they allowed the man to run amok and buy into his lowered expectations based on Wengers own diminishing grip on the game. The solution is not to dismantle the entire hierarchy at Arsenal. It is to get rid of the underperforming manager and build again.

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Do you have faith that the club can create a structure and environment for someone more competent to function in?

I seriously don't.

I hope I'm wrong

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Chelsea's mid season managerial changes does cause instability even in 2012 on one hand they win the European cup and on the other hand they finish behind spurs and Newcastle in the league?

It's also done wonders for Spurs I don't think

You're entitled to your opinion, but don't expect me to give it any "credence" to borrow your parlance.

Power_and_Glory doesn't agree with anything I say but he's prepared to attack the argument rather than the person. But obviously as you think I'm too idiotic to debate, you can't really be surprised if I'm dismissive of you.

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So now you've forgotten all your personal attacks against me. Firmly secured the victim hat on your head. :haha:

Like I said, carry on.

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Originally Posted by Özil's Panoramic View

So now you've forgotten all your personal attacks against me. Firmly secured the victim hat on your head. :haha:

Like I said, carry on.

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I don't feel victimised, I love throwing personal abuse about as much as the next man

I'm just explaining why I have thrown personal abuse your way

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Do you have faith that the club can create a structure and environment for someone more competent to function in?

I seriously don't.

I hope I'm wrong

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We're one of the best run clubs in the world. You talk as if we're some other North London club.

Top notch facilities, a great youth setup, enough resources to sign top players and a Board that won't dictate to the manager, buy players on his behalf or royally fuck things up like we've seen at Spurs, Newcastle and Chelsea.

Our biggest problem is Wenger. I can understand why the Board were happy with 4th whilst going through a transnisition from Highbury to the Emirates but the manager of all people should be pushing further than that and shouldn't be content with this barren spell because he's a sportsman. He should have more ambition. His hunger for success and trophies shouldn't be linked to finances, unlike the Board's. Our aim to stay in 4th was linked to the CL money and stability. Now if we want to grow our brand, we need titles. That's the only way more lucrative sponsorship deals will come in. That's all financial incentive. Ivan has already set out our ambition of being up there with Bayern and knows the best deals go to title winners. It's why clubs like Barca and Real sack managers quickly if they can't deliver titles. Their brand plummets without that bragging right.

But Wenger shouldn't need anymore incentive to see us push on. He should be doing everything possible for the win. Not sure if your an F1 fan but can you imagine if Lewis Hamilton and Rosberg decided to ease of the acceleration and not race as hard because Mercedes had already achieved their target in the Contructors Championsip? It would be totally backwards. It should be your first instinct to win. Or just imagine if Mercedes kept sending Lewis out with a dodgy uncompetitive car? Wouldn't he be banging on the door demanding better? If he had any ambition of being the world's best he would.

That's what I don't get about these excuses for Wenger. If the Board were screwing up on deals, he should be the first one to chew them out over such fuck ups and demand a change. I don't buy this 'enabler' argument. He's a sportmans for crying out load and shouldn't be comfortable with losing all the time. It's really time to stop the excuses. How can he go into the season so unequipped and feel so comfortable?

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Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw

It has already been said. The stadium is made of state of the art fire retardant materials.

Trying to burn it down would be pointless,

As for real fan action - I think you mentioned Newcastle as an exemplar in the past. Tell us all just how effective that has been? And you personally could make a start by not walking around all the time looking like the Armoury is your exclusive tailor.

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At Newcastle, at least the manager and board knows how much of a discontent there is. At least they are trying!! The Utd fans failed with their black scarves movement but they got noticed! I have a feeling that when there are mass demonstrations, Wenger will at least wake up OR walk! Chances are that he will just keep collecting the paycheck but at least the fans are trying. We wont know what we can do without even trying. Who knows... there might a person or two who has some shame in the upper echelons of the club.

As for looking like Armoury being my personal stylist... blame that on the women I dated or my friends. They know that the one gift idea they can always fall back on, is to buy me Arsenal stuff because I love Arsenal. I have told them multiple times how I dont want to give $$$'s to the club but they think I am just ranting as usual! I will however take some blame for the times when I am in London.. the tourist in me wakes up and starts buying merchandise. I have promised myself that I am not buying anymore for myself!