Wenger Referendum IV

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

That's a poor argument. You can't apply a similar argument I've made about Wenger's ambition just because Gazidis has no power over Wenger. His role as a CEO isn't to exert power of Wenger just for his ego. He was appointed to help grow the club as a business so we have the resources to compete at the top level. Also, let's put things into perspective, at which other club have you heard the CEO giving the manager their marching orders?

Also, the sponsorship deals were good for what they were at the time and what has enabled us to buy Ozil, Sanchez and Xhaka. Since the sponsorship deals, we've broken our transfer record and can comfortably match that record again and again. And of course Man Utd and Real Madrid's sponsorship deals are going to dwarf ours. You're giving examples of two of the most successful clubs in the history of football. Some perspective is needed here.

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Its not about ego it's about asserting influence over a man we both agree has too much control of things from a footballing perspective.
We talk about the influence Dein was able to exert over Wenger and largely as well as maximising profits for the club Gazidis' role is meant to be that of a leader answerable only to a board of directors (or more likely Majority share holder).

Now either Gazidis cannot keep Wenger under control or he has largely been content to give him all that control.

Like I say if his attempt to Make Wenger work with a director of football is more than just words, than fair enough I personally think he's allowed the situation to get to the point of unsustainability but yes at least doing something about it now.

But we will know what kind of man he is if nothing changes and he is still here next season.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Its not about ego it's about asserting influence over a man we both agree has too much control of things from a footballing perspective.
We talk about the influence Dein was able to exert over Wenger and largely as well as maximising profits for the club Gazidis' role is meant to be that of a leader answerable only to a board of directors (or more likely Majority share holder).

Now either Gazidis cannot keep Wenger under control or he has largely been content to give him all that control.

Like I say if his attempt to Make Wenger work with a director of football is more than just words, than fair enough I personally think he's allowed the situation to get to the point of unsustainability but yes at least doing something about it now.

But we will know what kind of man he is if nothing changes and he is still here next season.

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You know this already. :lol:

Or I assumed you did. It’s been discussed on here plenty of times. Wenger hired his own boss. Gazidis may have the same title as David Dein but he didn’t inherit the same sort of stature. Dein hired Wenger. Dein was a shareholder of the club so the dynamic was totally different. He was an owner as well as some actively involved with the day to day running.

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Now either Gazidis cannot keep Wenger under control or he has largely been content to give him all that control.

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For you to draw that sort of conclusion, you’d have to understand the role of a Chief Executive and what was agreed when he was hired. Was Gazidis given the power to fire Wenger? Does it sound like he has the authority to? In most football set ups I’ve seen where a club has a majority owner, the hiring and firing are done by the owner.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

You know this already. :lol:

Or I assumed you did. It’s been discussed on here plenty of times. Wenger hired his own boss. Gazidis may have the same title as David Dein but he didn’t inherit the same sort of stature. Dein hired Wenger. Dein was a shareholder of the club so the dynamic was totally different. He was an owner as well as some actively involved with the day to day running.



For you to draw that sort of conclusion, you’d have to understand the role of a Chief Executive and what was agreed when he was hired. Was Gazidis given the power to fire Wenger? Does it sound like he has the authority to? In most football set ups I’ve seen where a club has a majority owner, the hiring and firing are done by the owner.

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Again first of all we aren't talking about hiring and firing Wenger, we are talking about exerting influence over him

Yes of course I appreciate that Wenger sat in on the interview to hire the person who is his boss, but that's what a CEO is at the end of the day the Chief Executive is still the Manager's boss, so again I make the point to you this is someone who has either accepted that his role comes with diminished capacity (which would be odd as he became chief executive before Kroenke became majority share holder) or he hasn't been able to exert any influence over Kroenke to bring in the changes he wants to see when they have been against Wenger's wishes.

So either way Gazidis in my view does not come out of this inertia looking particularly effective.

However the true test of whether i'm right or wrong will be after the season has ended. If regardless of where we finish and whether we win the FA cup or not...Gazidis is either able to force the ultimatum on Wenger that he accepts a new management setup or he walks than fine, but if he's still in post and nothing has changed with Wenger then I'm sorry he's weak and incompetent..

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Again first of all we aren't talking about hiring and firing Wenger, we are talking about exerting influence over him

Yes of course I appreciate that Wenger sat in on the interview to hire the person who is his boss, but that's what a CEO is at the end of the day the Chief Executive is still the Manager's boss, so again I make the point to you this is someone who has either accepted that his role comes with diminished capacity (which would be odd as he became chief executive before Kroenke became majority share holder) or he hasn't been able to exert any influence over Kroenke to bring in the changes he wants to see when they have been against Wenger's wishes.

So either way Gazidis in my view does not come out of this inertia looking particularly effective.

However the true test of whether i'm right or wrong will be after the season has ended. If regardless of where we finish and whether we win the FA cup or not...Gazidis is either able to force the ultimatum on Wenger that he accepts a new management setup or he walks than fine, but if he's still in post and nothing has changed with Wenger then I'm sorry he's weak and incompetent..

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Elaborate on that point. How much more besides the Director of Football thing can Ivan push on?

Last point, Kroenke wasn’t the owner when Gazidis came on Board, but Wenger was manager and doing Ivan’s job as Chief Executive. My guess is that it’s always been a collaborative relationship but Wenger having more power since he’s the one that ‘built’ the club with his bare hands.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

Elaborate on that point. How much more besides the Director of Football thing can Ivan push on?

Last point, Kroenke wasn’t the owner when Gazidis came on Board, but Wenger was manager and doing Ivan’s job as Chief Executive. My guess is that it’s always been a collaborative relationship but Wenger having more power since he’s the one that ‘built’ the club with his bare hands.

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Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

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That's not the job of the CEO and it would be stepping way over the line. It would be the same as pushing Wenger out. Not that I'm against it in this one instance, but it would be a dangerous precedent for the next guy to live with. And do we want a snake like Gazidis replacing Wenger as the all-singing, all-dancing dictator?

What needs to happen is for Gazidis to sit down with Kroenke and explain why he, the CEO, feels it is time for the manager to walk. That takes care of the coaching problem in the proper way. If he hasn't already done that then we can put to bed the idea Gazidis is trying to force Wenger out. If he has done it then it can only be assumed Kroenke has backed Wenger, in which case Gazidis is out.

Or, this is just one big pile of bullshit and they are all still singing from the same sheet and keeping their hands clasped in prayer that we'll tumble into the top 4 by season's end. That will be seized upon as success and they'll probably get away with it. Add a cup to that and I can see many fans reversing their opinion. What have you done for me lately works both ways. Then we'll settle down for more of the same. The money will flow in and Kroenke can use the club to underpin his real ambition, property deals in LA.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

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That's just entertaining the wild goose chase Wenger is sending everyone on. It's just another addition to an already long list of changes seen at the club. A quick rundown of what’s changed or been introduced.

- Transfers

- New Assistant Manager

- GPS Vests to measure fatigue of players in training to try and prevent injuries.

- Stat DNA to help with transfers

- New Sponsorship money

- Appointing Dick Law

- New Academy coach

- New Scouts

- New Youth Academy Coach

- New Medical staff

No point in providing the resources if the manager has no idea how best to use them. We see that in how money is wasted on transfers and even down to the GPS vest investment. How many times has Wenger said he's having to play a player that's in the 'red zone' and suffering from fatigue? Jonker has left and I just read that Wenger will 'help' to appoint a new coach that has 'Arsenal values'. From what I've read, Jonker wanted put a stop to handing out contracts to just any player and wanted a stricter culture where youngsters had to work harder and that was rubbing folks the wrong way.

Gazidis hasn't been effective and unless he gets the backing from our owner to fire Wenger, the same shite will continue. If Gazidis moves on, we'll only see an even weaker version appointed. Another yes man.

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

That's just entertaining the wild goose chase Wenger is sending everyone on. It's just another addition to an already long list of changes seen at the club. A quick rundown of what’s changed or been introduced.

- Transfers

- New Assistant Manager

- GPS Vests to measure fatigue of players in training to try and prevent injuries.

- Stat DNA to help with transfers

- New Sponsorship money

- Appointing Dick Law

- New Academy coach

- New Scouts

- New Youth Academy Coach

- New Medical staff

No point in providing the resources if the manager has no idea how best to use them. We see that in how money is wasted on transfers and even down to the GPS vest investment. How many times has Wenger said he's having to play a player that's in the 'red zone' and suffering from fatigue? Jonker has left and I just read that Wenger will 'help' to appoint a new coach that has 'Arsenal values'. From what I've read, Jonker wanted put a stop to handing out contracts to just any player and wanted a stricter culture where youngsters had to work harder and that was rubbing folks the wrong way.

Gazidis hasn't been effective and unless he gets the backing from our owner to fire Wenger, the same shite will continue. If Gazidis moves on, we'll only see an even weaker version appointed. Another yes man.

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If Gazidis stays having not put any constraints on Wenger as a result of meetings post the end of the season than he is a yes man himself

Wenger has already stated he doesn't want a director of football, if this isn't forced upon him than we know Gazidis has no leverage in his role and if he stays on after that, i'd have to question his self-respect.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

If Gazidis stays having not put any constraints on Wenger as a result of meetings post the end of the season than he is a yes man himself

Wenger has already stated he doesn't want a director of football, if this isn't forced upon him than we know Gazidis has no leverage in his role and if he stays on after that, i'd have to question his self-respect.

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We've already established he has no leverage. Self respect? I get that you're playing devils advocate but explain the logic behind that. It feels like you're trying to apply a similar argument I've made about Wenger lacking pride when it comes to his Arsenal record. The same rules don't apply to a suit like Gazidis. He doesn't claim to love the club, he's not a sportsman where the most important accolade should be the trophies. He's a businessman. He'll continue to collect his pay under a difficult manager until a more lucrative offer comes along. What else are you expecting?

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

We've already established he has no leverage. Self respect? I get that you're playing devils advocate but explain the logic behind that. It feels like you're trying to apply a similar argument I've made about Wenger lacking pride when it comes to his Arsenal record. The same rules don't apply to a suit like Gazidis. He doesn't claim to love the club, he's not a sportsman where the most important accolade should be the trophies. He's a businessman. He'll continue to collect his pay under a difficult manager until a more lucrative offer comes along. What else are you expecting?

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But you are I feel (and i could be wrong) working under the understanding that i am in anyway excusing Wenger

I don't think there is any argument against Wenger wanting to stay shows a lack of professional pride on his part

It's not about love for the club with Gazidis, it's about having respect for your own reputation.....basically the perception is that he's a puppet with no power in his role, if he stays in his role having failed to achieve any restrain on Wenger than I would say the lack of professional pride also applies to him.

And frankly if he's that good at his job, presumably he'd want to go somewhere where he can effect more change than he can with us.