Wenger Referendum IV

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11-05-2017, 12:39 PM
selassie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

I was under the impression this is happening now? Gazidis has already come out and said this seasons performance could be a catalyst for change, he has yet to publically refute this. There has also been numerous links to Directors Of Football and strong rumours of Peyton & Primorac not being renewed. It seems to me that Gazidis is doing all he can to initiate change in terms of the technical side.
11-05-2017, 12:48 PM
Letters

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Or, this is just one big pile of bullshit and they are all still singing from the same sheet and keeping their hands clasped in prayer that we'll tumble into the top 4 by season's end. That will be seized upon as success and they'll probably get away with it. Add a cup to that and I can see many fans reversing their opinion.

I know a couple of people who are Wenger Inners - I don't like this "WOB" and "AKB" nonsense, do we need to go out of our way to be divisive and split ourselves into sub-tribes?
And a 3rd said to me today that if we finish top 4 and win the Cup he'd give him one more season.
As you know I've been more patient than most but even I have snapped this season after yet another year without a serious title challenge and our perennial embarrassment in Europe.
I find it baffling that anyone would want him to stay now.
11-05-2017, 12:48 PM
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by selassie

I was under the impression this is happening now? Gazidis has already come out and said this seasons performance could be a catalyst for change, he has yet to publically refute this. There has also been numerous links to Directors Of Football and strong rumours of Peyton & Primorac not being renewed. It seems to me that Gazidis is doing all he can to initiate change in terms of the technical side.

At the moment it's just words....Gazidis has also stated we would be up there competing on the same level as Bayern Munich, and claimed that it was the fans who would decide Wenger's fate.....so it remains to be seen whether this is more PR intended to mollify people.

It's not exactly like he or the club have ever been that straight up with us.
11-05-2017, 12:56 PM
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letters

I know a couple of people who are Wenger Inners - I don't like this "WOB" and "AKB" nonsense, do we need to go out of our way to be divisive and split ourselves into sub-tribes?
And a 3rd said to me today that if we finish top 4 and win the Cup he'd give him one more season.
As you know I've been more patient than most but even I have snapped this season after yet another year without a serious title challenge and our perennial embarrassment in Europe.
I find it baffling that anyone would want him to stay now.

People are very tribal by nature, we see it in politics

Unfortunately i think NQ could have a point, I think a top 4 and an fa cup win would massively turn the tables in Wenger's favour.

Whether we finish in the top four or not will be decided this weekend, we have to win at Stoke and rely on West Ham to get something against Liverpool

That's two very big things that have to go for us, we haven't won at the Britannia since 2010 of course they don't have much to play for, but their fans hate us and Wenger....we have an appalling record away to sides managed by Mark Hughes.

And we have to hope West Ham are sufficiently motivated to beat or draw with Liverpool when they are safe themselves

As for the FA cup final, yes it's a one off game on neutral ground and anything could happen, but Chelsea are a better side than us with a better manager than us and that makes them strong favourites.
11-05-2017, 01:06 PM
Letters

Yes, but the tribe should be Arsenal. We shouldn't be in-fighting. I'm baffled by people wanting Wenger to stay but I wouldn't paint them as "AKB", I'm sure they understand that things could be going better.
We hadn't won at Southampton for ages either, and slipping up is Liverpool's thing. I'm starting to think it's going to happen :lol:
I don't think we'll win the FA Cup though.
11-05-2017, 01:11 PM
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letters

Yes, but the tribe should be Arsenal. We shouldn't be in-fighting. I'm baffled by people wanting Wenger to stay but I wouldn't paint them as "AKB", I'm sure they understand that things could be going better.
We hadn't won at Southampton for ages either, and slipping up is Liverpool's thing. I'm starting to think it's going to happen :lol:
I don't think we'll win the FA Cup though.

For Wenger it seems to be certain managers rather than clubs he cannot best, but who knows he'd never beaten Mourinho in the league before Sunday.

I blame the club for this schism, at the end of the day if many fans have been pushed to the point where they can see the benefit of us losing games if it pushes Wenger out than who is to blame for that. I don't enjoy watching us play any more, but it's an addiction you can't break yourself from.

I want to go back to the time where I would really look forward to us playing, but apparently that to other fans makes me entitled.
11-05-2017, 01:43 PM
Power n Glory

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

But you are I feel (and i could be wrong) working under the understanding that i am in anyway excusing Wenger

I don't think there is any argument against Wenger wanting to stay shows a lack of professional pride on his part

It's not about love for the club with Gazidis, it's about having respect for your own reputation.....basically the perception is that he's a puppet with no power in his role, if he stays in his role having failed to achieve any restrain on Wenger than I would say the lack of professional pride also applies to him.

And frankly if he's that good at his job, presumably he'd want to go somewhere where he can effect more change than he can with us.

I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate. I’ve listened to similar views expressed here, on podcasts and blogs like Aresblog and just think a poor argument is being presented with little evidence. For example, I can’t understand why people are placing so much importance on Gazidis making a show in public with another statement. He’s already said his piece and hinted at a change in both of them. What else is expected from Mr PR? He’s not going to come out and out right say Wenger has to go and he’ll only be criticised if he backs the manager. But that’s another argument.

Do you think if Gazidis applies for another job they’ll be judging him on how he’s handled Wenger? An old man that feels he’s built the club with his bare hands and knows better than everyone else? I’d say having a public fall out with the manager and not being able to work with him goes against his reputation. In the era where managers feel like they’re the superstar, I doubt it effects his reputation on a professional level. The owners do the hiring and firing. The balance figures and revenue generated are what counts for or against his reputation. How he manages other members of staff and the new ideas implemented will be the main things. I highly doubt it will knock his reputation and if it were, leaving the club right now would be the dumbest move he could make. He’d be leaving with his tail between his legs.
11-05-2017, 01:47 PM
Power n Glory

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

That's not the job of the CEO and it would be stepping way over the line. It would be the same as pushing Wenger out. Not that I'm against it in this one instance, but it would be a dangerous precedent for the next guy to live with. And do we want a snake like Gazidis replacing Wenger as the all-singing, all-dancing dictator?

What needs to happen is for Gazidis to sit down with Kroenke and explain why he, the CEO, feels it is time for the manager to walk. That takes care of the coaching problem in the proper way. If he hasn't already done that then we can put to bed the idea Gazidis is trying to force Wenger out. If he has done it then it can only be assumed Kroenke has backed Wenger, in which case Gazidis is out.

Or, this is just one big pile of bullshit and they are all still singing from the same sheet and keeping their hands clasped in prayer that we'll tumble into the top 4 by season's end. That will be seized upon as success and they'll probably get away with it. Add a cup to that and I can see many fans reversing their opinion. What have you done for me lately works both ways. Then we'll settle down for more of the same. The money will flow in and Kroenke can use the club to underpin his real ambition, property deals in LA.

A really good point made and it is a dangerous precedent. It shouldn't be a case of suits with no football experience forcing such decisions.
11-05-2017, 01:57 PM
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate. I’ve listened to similar views expressed here, on podcasts and blogs like Aresblog and just think a poor argument is being presented with little evidence. For example, I can’t understand why people are placing so much importance on Gazidis making a show in public with another statement. He’s already said his piece and hinted at a change in both of them. What else is expected from Mr PR? He’s not going to come out and out right say Wenger has to go and he’ll only be criticised if he backs the manager. But that’s another argument.

Do you think if Gazidis applies for another job they’ll be judging him on how he’s handled Wenger? An old man that feels he’s built the club with his bare hands and knows better than everyone else? I’d say having a public fall out with the manager and not being able to work with him goes against his reputation. In the era where managers feel like they’re the superstar, I doubt it effects his reputation on a professional level. The owners do the hiring and firing. The balance figures and revenue generated are what counts for or against his reputation. How he manages other members of staff and the new ideas implemented will be the main things. I highly doubt it will knock his reputation and if it were, leaving the club right now would be the dumbest move he could make. He’d be leaving with his tail between his legs.

As a CEO yes marketing and improved figures are a big part of your role, but compare us to Bayern Munich for instance who charge their fans nowhere near the amount we do (yes that's partly because of where we are based) but they are richer than us because they make up that difference through marketing which they are able to do by sustained long term success. I don't think Karl Heinz Rummenige would get much truck saying...sorry the shareholders are happy with the manager because even though we aren't as rich as we could be, and the on field success is pretty mediocre...the share values are pretty good because of tv money etc.

Take away the recent sponsorship deals and most of the money we make is from gate receipts, tv money and champions league money and in the recent past player sales.

I don't understand how you think it would not harm Gazidis' reputation that after promising change to fans he is unable to deliver anything, and how you think it would damage it if he was able to say I have joined another organisation which matches my ambitions for expansion.

What i am saying is that there isn't any outstanding evidence for Gazidis being a particularly effective CEO, and being able to influence the change of football structure around Arsene Wenger (I take it we both agree that there is no chance of Wenger leaving in the summer) might go some way to proving his detractors wrong.

I have never once claimed about Gazidis firing Wenger, but a CEO expands the business by leadership and influencing the working practices of those it is their job to manage. It seems now the method Gazidis has chosen to do this is by trying to install a director of football....and his effectiveness within his job will be shown in his ability to convince Kroenke of the necessity for such a role to exist despite Wenger's protestations.
11-05-2017, 02:12 PM
Power n Glory

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

As a CEO yes marketing and improved figures are a big part of your role, but compare us to Bayern Munich for instance who charge their fans nowhere near the amount we do (yes that's partly because of where we are based) but they are richer than us because they make up that difference through marketing which they are able to do by sustained long term success. I don't think Karl Heinz Rummenige would get much truck saying...sorry the shareholders are happy with the manager because even though we aren't as rich as we could be, and the on field success is pretty mediocre...the share values are pretty good because of tv money etc.

Take away the recent sponsorship deals and most of the money we make is from gate receipts, tv money and champions league money and in the recent past player sales.

I don't understand how you think it would not harm Gazidis' reputation that after promising change to fans he is unable to deliver anything, and how you think it would damage it if he was able to say I have joined another organisation which matches my ambitions for expansion.

What i am saying is that there isn't any outstanding evidence for Gazidis being a particularly effective CEO, and being able to influence the change of football structure around Arsene Wenger (I take it we both agree that there is no chance of Wenger leaving in the summer) might go some way to proving his detractors wrong.

I have never once claimed about Gazidis firing Wenger, but a CEO expands the business by leadership and influencing the working practices of those it is their job to manage. It seems now the method Gazidis has chosen to do this is by trying to install a director of football....and his effectiveness within his job will be shown in his ability to convince Kroenke of the necessity for such a role to exist despite Wenger's protestations.

You're not paying attention.

Quote:

Do you think if Gazidis applies for another job they’ll be judging him on how he’s handled Wenger? An old man that feels he’s built the club with his bare hands and knows better than everyone else? I’d say having a public fall out with the manager and not being able to work with him goes against his reputation. In the era where managers feel like they’re the superstar, I doubt it effects his reputation on a professional level. The owners do the hiring and firing. The balance figures and revenue generated are what counts for or against his reputation. How he manages other members of staff and the new ideas implemented will be the main things. I highly doubt it will knock his reputation and if it were, leaving the club right now would be the dumbest move he could make. He’d be leaving with his tail between his legs.

I don't know how Bayern view him and you're shifting goal posts slightly. Good or bad, how he's managed the books and ideas he's implemented is what he'll be judged on. Your personal opinion on the job he's done, or my opinion on how he's done isn't really relevant.

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