Jack Wilshere and our future midfield

It's an interesting debate and I think some of it comes down to what you regard as the 'double pivot's' primary purpose or objective. If it is to detect, destroy and counter then a Maka-Toure partnership is preferable. If the prime emphasis is to hold and counter, then something like Ramsey and Wilshere may be preferable, although it hasn't escaped me that the former two have proved everything in the game and the latter nothing yet.

I do sense that our collective defensive strategy is based on strategically outnumbering opponents in midfield and pressing them at crucial times and in that sense a player in the Maka mould is less pertinent although obviously a valuable asset in any squad. So many of the goals we have conceded in the last two seasons have been down to individual errors, because what we do collectively works, when we are committed to it.

Wilshere can never be a Maka primarily because his skill set means no manager would ever use him in the exact same way. Ie, he has a lot more about him, but that is not to marginalise the positional understanding the little Frenchman had. It was quite profound and only second to his ability to thwart you. There can't be many players that it would prove more difficult to get past.

We need time to see how he develops but with Ramsey's numbers right now (as well as what we see with our own eyes) mean he can be played comfortably in any position. Anyone could slip into the double pivot with him and he can even be given the holding role on his own right now. He is covering that much ground, passing so well and winning that many tackles (95% so far this season) that it really opens the options up. He is basically coming away with the ball every time he pokes his toe out and that's without mentioning his goal tally. That's why you need to take a longer term view and keep an eye on how he does to determine where he might be in the long run. Encouragingly though, most these stats extend beyond the beginning of this season and into the back end of last. More evidence that it is genuine improvement as opposed to fleeting good form.

Monty that comparison is completely off. It's like calling Vieira and Bergkamp our double pivot. Iniesta has always been an advanced playmaker and never a double pivot player.

Xavi has always had Yaya/Kieta/Busquetes balancing it out. Even for Spain, Xavi has Busquetes AND Alonso behind him.

No top team has 2 small guys in the double pivot. This is a modern day fact.

If the opportunity came to sign Sami Khedira for sake of argument, I'd slot him in next to Ramsey/Jack and be delighted, even if it relegates one of them to the bench.

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Originally Posted by Montyzuma

In this case size doesn't matter at all. Iniesta and Xavi do the job for Spain Vieira and Petit did the job for Arsenal as long as they are good players there is more than one way to skin a cat.

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It's interesting looking at Man Utd right now.

In Fellaini and Carrick they have close to what I'd call an ideal double pivot. It's only lacking some pace and creativity, but Rooney becomes the key player for them in that number 10 role, linking the play between midfield and attack.

A slightly different and even better one would be Schweinsteiger and Alonso. That's probably close to being perfect for me.

Ramsey and Wilshere need to work on their positioning and reading the flow of a game. That’s my main concern over physicality. Both will drift up field or to wider areas in search of the killer pass or goal instead of looking for pockets of space in the middle to pick off passes and supply the passes and support to the wider areas. You often see this vacuum of space in the middle of the park and for a team that’s about possession and short passing, that just shouldn’t happen. They’re movement is undisciplined and it’s why the fluidity of our play has gone and teams can sometimes mount attack after attack against us. The centre of the pitch should be our hub and everything should flow from there.

Rosicky just works better in the role because he knows to stay centre and provide the quick passes and support. While he’s out, the pair need to work on this. Learn patience and stop forcing passes or dribbles from bad positioning. Keep it simple and learn each other’s movement. It takes a flurry of passes to build an attack but it seems like they both go for the one killer move or look to move up the pitch too quickly leaving us vulnerable to counters.

rossicky looks good there now but was shit/injured every season between 2007/08 and last year. He refers to his goals as "collectors' items" in ad admisssion of how rare they are.

So far every vaguely sensible criticism of ramsey+wilshere looks like it will be eradicated with experience. The rest (not big enough, black enough, etc) are not sensible

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Originally Posted by Nayan

So far every vaguely sensible criticism of ramsey+wilshere looks like it will be eradicated with experience.

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With Ramsey it looks likely. Wilshere hasnt improved a lick in the last 2-3 years.

Same thing is happening with that MacEachran boy at Chelsea, hes nowhere near. People are so desperate for Englands own Xavi. This Great White Hope scramble. When he was 16 people like Bob Wilson were saying hes better than Fabregas at the same age, at 21-22 he couldnt lace that mans boots. Hes got alot to do this Wilshere.

The thing about Wilshere is that England need him to be this creative force and dominating games but we don't, we only need him to carve out an effective niche. Thankfully there are enough young players for England to get carried away with whilst Wilshere finds his game.

Martinez, Bender, Busquetes, Khedira, Carrick, Fernandinho, Sandro, Mikel

Every top team has 1 unquestionable defensive midfielder present in their pivot. We'll probably see Arteta/Flamini fulfilling this defensive role in our side, and subsequently being paired with an all action Ramsey/Wilshere for the majority of the season.

For Ramsey and Jack to be our long term midfield pairing, one of them will have to focus heavily on the defensive side of their game. If one of them does this, then it could certainly work. Despite his goals, I can see Ramsey developing into this player for us in a while. His positional sense has vastly improved despite his all energy action game.

Right now at least I have no real concern with our midfield options. Those 4 will play 90% of our matches. Diaby can play for the odd game when he's fit to give them a break, and Rosicky is capable of dropping in. It's pretty much an ideal scenario for the moment.

They are defensive midfielders in name but most of those have more ability than just being 'destroyers'. I don't think it's fair to put Fernandinho because Man City have achieved very little with him yet (and nor would they so early in to this season). Mikel is the only one there that I would say is liimited to pure defensive ability.

The only way Ramsey and Wilshere could have a future of sharing the midfield together, would be if Ramsey accepted the role of a holding midfielder, he has the skillset and physique to become an amazing holding midfielder, but after tasting the sweetness of going forward and scoring goals, i dont think we're gonna see that. Wilshere i see as a player who can, in the future, have the ability to control the game as a nr8, but he needs a holding midfielder besides him.