Match Reaction vs Sunderland (away).

Yeah, but we're shit.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I've backed up my opinion with stats and reasoning. All you've done is keep repeating it as fact as though the more you say it the truer it will be.

Actually, my stance isn't really an opinion. The most significant objective metrics of where we are year on year clearly show that we haven't got 'shitter and shitter' over the last 5 years. Last season we got more points and were closer to the champions than any year since 2008.

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We were better last year but seem to have taken a few steps backwards. The FA Cup wasn't the springboard we'd thought it would be. Seems like we've fallen complacent after that small victory. But regardless, this seems like a pointless debate. Back up as many points as you like using stats, we're still 'shit' even if the points tally doesn't show we're getting 'shitter' each year. We're still not moving in the right direction and that's the overall point that should be emphasised.

IMO, we aren't getting shitter, we just aren't improving. We have changed personal numerous times and whilst some players were shite, they certainly haven't all been so.

We have the potential to be a great team, but we are consistently let down but the lack of tactics or change in our play.

I don't want to get into another wenger debate, but it's clear that with a different vision and more tactically astute thinking, we would be far superior than what we are now

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

We were better last year but seem to have taken a few steps backwards. The FA Cup wasn't the springboard we'd thought it would be.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWFRpqltyPU

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

We were better last year but seem to have taken a few steps backwards. The FA Cup wasn't the springboard we'd thought it would be. Seems like we've fallen complacent after that small victory. But regardless, this seems like a pointless debate. Back up as many points as you like using stats, we're still 'shit' even if the points tally doesn't show we're getting 'shitter' each year. We're still not moving in the right direction and that's the overall point that should be emphasised.

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Well. I agree with all that.

It's just irritating when people make vague claims which just don't stack up and then ignore or dismiss the evidence which shows they don't stack up and use lazy straw man arguments instead of responding to the argument.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well. I agree with all that.

It's just irritating when people make vague claims which just don't stack up and then ignore or dismiss the evidence which shows they don't stack up and use lazy straw man arguments instead of responding to the argument.

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What annoys me most is the arguing over semantics or 'degrees of shitness'.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well. I agree with all that.

It's just irritating when people make vague claims which just don't stack up and then ignore or dismiss the evidence which shows they don't stack up and use lazy straw man arguments instead of responding to the argument.

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Inside your head must be an ocean wave of contradictions sloshing back and forth in a colossal conundrum. 2 days ago we were stagnating, Yesterday, we seem to have regressed. Today we are back to stagnating and of course you have the facts to back it up. Points. WTF do points mean?. Please list our season ending standing position for the last 7 years and tell me where we are heading. Nobody hates bullshit more than the bullshitter. You like your stats, I like mine. Points don't mean jack. You can lose the league by 1 point or a dozen. This is the same mindset that sees us awarding Wenger invisible trophies conjured up on these pages. You my friend can copiously continue to argue the difference between 6 and half a dozen. The evidence however is there on the pitch. Turgid impotent football that is clueless against organised teams and utterly swatted away by quality teams with astute managers.

The football is currently the worst I have seen us play in near on 40 years. In that respect we've not just gone backwards, we've fallen off the edge of an abyss and are accelerating towards terminal velocity. I dread having to watch us play because I know it will be the most frustrating experience of the week by a distance. Fortunately for us, this is the shittiest league in Europe in terms of the quality of the football played and the entertainment it provides. So we remain the 4th biggest turd in a pile of shit. In that respect we've held station, or stagnated, or rotted.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

The football is currently the worst I have seen us play in near on 40 years. In that respect we've not just gone backwards, we've fallen off the edge of an abyss and are accelerating towards terminal velocity. I dread having to watch us play because I know it will be the most frustrating experience of the week by a distance. Fortunately for us, this is the shittiest league in Europe in terms of the quality of the football played and the entertainment it provides. So we remain the 4th biggest turd in a pile of shit. In that respect we've held station, or stagnated, or rotted.

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Turd :pal:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well...yes. We finished 4th :shrug:

We won more games than anyone outside the top 3.
We lost fewer games than anyone outside the top 3.
We scored more goals than anyone outside the top 3.
We conceded fewer goals than anyone but City, Chelsea and Everton (Liverpool contrived to concede significantly more which, I guess, is why they failed to win the title).

In brief, by every reasonable metric in terms of overall league performance we were about 4th best. The word 'good' is a bit vague but I'd say that's a pretty good team.

And yes, we got 79 points, that's more than in the 97/98 season when we did the Double.
Football has moved on, you need to do better than that to win the title these days, but it's a decent tally, only two fewer than Chelsea and seven fewer than Champions City.
It's the most points we've got since 2008 and, it's also the smallest gap between ourselves and the champions since 2008.
The bit in bold is significant IMO, I would call that progress.

I'm interested how you would back up the claim that our points total 'means nothing'? Surely in assessing league performance it's pretty key.
We got hammered in the 3 away games against the top 3 (I thought we played well at City actually and on a different day, with a different ref, that would have been closer, I didn't see the Liverpool game but heard we were hopeless, I did see the Chelsea game and we were hopeless!)
Against those sides at home we won one and drew two. Not good enough overall and showed up our title credentials. But the league isn't determined over 3 games, it's over 38. And it's surely better that way round than getting better results in those games and then keep losing to teams we 'should' be beating and overall doing worse. The ideal is both, obviously.

Last year we did seem to make some progress, the league points tally was encouraging and the FA Cup win finally got the monkey off our back about not winning trophies. It seemed like a good platform to push on and whatever you think of Wenger he deserved the chance to lead us on if he wanted to (for his sake he should probably have retired on a high, but there you go). And we seemed to be making good signings in the summer. I'm completely baffled as to how we can suddenly be as crap as we've been this season although it has to be said at the tail end of last season we were struggling through games a bit and maybe that's carried on to this season. We're not good enough to win the title and I agree about the style of football but we're a better team than our results and performances are suggesting so far. I'm a bit baffled at how clueless we're looking tbh.

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I'll first answer by saying why total points mean nothing in the big picture. While our points gap may with the PL champions was the lowest in a while, we knew in March itself that we were out of the title race. Like I mentioned in my previous post, we always show promise one season and mess up the next. Case in point would be the 2008 season where we finished on 83 points and the next season, we barely scrapped past Villa into 4th. The same thing is happening this season yet I find you at a loss for words to describe how this is happening! This has been happening for the last 5-6 years. It shouldnt be a surprise anymore!

I dont know about the other Wenger critics much but my criticism of him has never been about spending. Its about why he has changed our style of play into something horrible to watch. I do not understand why he plays players out of position and then wonders why we play with a 'little bit handbrake'! That man is doing this to us every season with the same out of date tactics and player selection yet he gets backing from many. I have said this before and I'll say it again... we can get Ronaldo and Messi in the team and AW will coach the directness out of them as well. He really shouldve retired after the end of last season and gone on a high.. instead now he is trapped in a place where he cant hide behind the 'money argument'. He is slowly destroying whatever goodwill he has at the club. While I do not like him as a manager, I really wish he had walked out on a high. Pity!