Match Reaction: Olympiakos 0-3 Bif

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

What would you accept as evidence for a step up? I've listed endlessly a few signs of hope I see. The signings of people like Ozil, Sanchez and Cech has made a clear difference. We've finally started winning trophies again. Not the biggest prizes yet but it's a start. And some of the results in the last year or so have shown something - a few years ago we wouldn't have won either the away Utd game in the FA Cup or the home game this year. Before the home game this year many were predicting a repeat of previous home games vs Utd where we dominate possession but end up losing, but we blitzed them. Yes, some of those results have been followed by disappointing ones but isn't any season like that? It certainly has been this year for everyone, there has been no standout team this year.
Ultimately we'll only know whether we've stepped up come May - well, maybe earlier if we start to seriously fall out of the title race.

I was endlessly mocked early season for daring to suggest that maybe we should wait till the end of the season to see where we are but it's obvious. This result is a case in point. Do you judge our performance in the CL group stage after 2 games when it was looking like a fiasco or after 6 when we've qualified? Right now we're in the title race and we've qualified for the last 16 of the CL, I think that's a pretty decent season so far. Ultimately we'll only be able to assess the season properly and whether we've made progress or not at the end.

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You judge it after ONE game and then you judge it again after the next. The things you are listing as progress are things a club like Arsenal should be doing at a minimum - signing decent players, winning the odd minor trophy, actually getting a few results against clubs that are supposed to be rivals. Minimum. This is what Wenger does well - the bare minimum. The fact we scraped through CL qualification does not eliminate his amateur hour fucks ups in the earlier rounds. When he stops making these fucks up then people will become more confident in our ability to mount and sustain a challenge for the big prizes. It's perfectly understandable, given the history, many fans are not cheering in a new era based on us scraping through a group that contained two teams making up the numbers.

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Originally Posted by IBK

Woefully inept is over- egging it - but I can see what you are getting at - and you PnG to a degree.

With Wenger - it always seems sometimes like there's a glass ceiling for his teams that allows them to get so far - to flatter to deceive if you like - only to fall short of proper success. I guess what you are saying, PnG is that while we did undoubtedly show the mental strength, composure and team performance necessary to go through on Wednesday night - Wenger's teams are, and have always been, capable of pulling off a good result - never more so than in getting to our glass ceiling of last 16 CL qualification or top 4 EPL.

I suppose its perfectly valid for both of you to take the view that a 'real performance' would be one that ended up breaking our 'glass ceiling'.

And that's the problem I guess. I was genuinely impressed with us on Wednesday - but without evidence of a proper step up by this team it will be just another of the many causes for optimism that we have had over the years, only to ultimately be let down.

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It was a good result with some solid performances. I won't downplay what we did on the night. But it's impossible to measure our progress off the back of one result or a handful of games. I can only hope individuals in the team like Campbell, Giroud..etc grow more in confidence and keep the good form going. There aren't many signs or indication left for us in terms of results. We just have to be consistent and end up winning the league or CL.

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Originally Posted by Arsene Wenger

You judge it after ONE game and then you judge it again after the next.

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Isn't that what leads to the ridiculous over-reacting on here though? I have a colleague like that. Draw with Norwich and we're awful, no chance of top 4. Beat Olympiacos to qualify and we're Champions elect and definitely going to do the treble. I find it bizarre.

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The things you are listing as progress are things a club like Arsenal should be doing at a minimum - signing decent players, winning the odd minor trophy, actually getting a few results against clubs that are supposed to be rivals. Minimum. This is what Wenger does well - the bare minimum.

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We weren't doing any of those things a few years ago. If (and I accept it is an if) we continue to push on then that's pretty much what progress means.
The FA Cup isn't a minor trophy but you know that of course.

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The fact we scraped through CL qualification does not eliminate his amateur hour fucks ups in the earlier rounds.

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Actually, it does. In that group we were expected to qualify in 2nd place to Bayern and we did. How we got there doesn't really matter.
Yes, we shouldn't have had to dig ourselves out of that hole but we did it - thanks in no small part to the Bayern result and don't underestimate that, they've only failed to win 3 games all season and when we beat them it was the first game they'd failed to win up to that point.

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When he stops making these fucks up then people will become more confident in our ability to mount and sustain a challenge for the big prizes. It's perfectly understandable, given the history, many fans are not cheering in a new era based on us scraping through a group that contained two teams making up the numbers

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Some reservation and doubt is understandable, but calling for his head after every poor result (and sometimes after some good ones) is ridiculous.
We're 2nd in the league (might not be after today's results) and have just qualified for the CL last 16. I don't think we're good enough to win the CL but I do think we're good enough to win the PL, while we're in the hunt for that I'll get behind the team and the manager. If we fall away then yes, Wenger out. But at least wait till it happens.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

What would you accept as evidence for a step up? I've listed endlessly a few signs of hope I see. The signings of people like Ozil, Sanchez and Cech has made a clear difference. We've finally started winning trophies again. Not the biggest prizes yet but it's a start. And some of the results in the last year or so have shown something - a few years ago we wouldn't have won either the away Utd game in the FA Cup or the home game this year. Before the home game this year many were predicting a repeat of previous home games vs Utd where we dominate possession but end up losing, but we blitzed them. Yes, some of those results have been followed by disappointing ones but isn't any season like that? It certainly has been this year for everyone, there has been no standout team this year.
Ultimately we'll only know whether we've stepped up come May - well, maybe earlier if we start to seriously fall out of the title race.

I was endlessly mocked early season for daring to suggest that maybe we should wait till the end of the season to see where we are but it's obvious. This result is a case in point. Do you judge our performance in the CL group stage after 2 games when it was looking like a fiasco or after 6 when we've qualified? Right now we're in the title race and we've qualified for the last 16 of the CL, I think that's a pretty decent season so far. Ultimately we'll only be able to assess the season properly and whether we've made progress or not at the end.

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You say the same thing every year which is why you're mocked.

With so many of our rivals, like Man Utd, looking so much weaker, should we really draw that much satisfaction from finally beating them this year? Is that a measure of our progress or their decline? Again, I can't really look too deeply into the teams we've beaten or the results because we've beaten big teams like Barca, Bayern, Chelsea, City, AC Milan....etc before and it's always supposed to act as some sort of springboard to bigger things but that's not the case. For me, the more important signs to look out for this season will be the January transfer window. I think this is the 4th time we've been in this position where we're in the running for the title but need signings to help with our injury crisis and keep us in the hunt. We'll soon find out if lessons have been learned. It's bad enough that we've crocked our players and haven't managed fitness levels better. These are the signs you should be looking for. The problems that have plagued us for years on end and cost us.

You've carefully framed every argument so you can make your stock counter argument. Nobody has called for Wenger's head after one bad game. People are calling for his head after a decade of under-achievement. "But you know that of course."

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Originally Posted by Arsene Wenger

You've carefully framed every argument so you can make your stock counter argument. Nobody has called for Wenger's head after one bad game. People are calling for his head after a decade of under-achievement. "But you know that of course."

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Yes, I do understand that but it's a simplistic argument which fails to account for the fact that the last 10 years need to be split into 2 sections, one where we had some belt tightening while the billionaires were running amok and 2 years when the new financial deals were in place and we started to sign a different level of player which should see us more seriously competing.

We should have won a trophy or 2 in those 8 years and at times Wenger probably should have been sacked.
The last 2. We'll have to agree to disagree that 2 FA Cups is underachievement. I do think we should have challenged for the league last year, our failure to do so is damning, the FA Cup retention mitigates it. Overall it wasn't a disastrous season nor an outstanding one. This season we need to push on and properly challenge. I've said repeatedly Wenger should be sacked if we don't. So far though, we are. While that continues he'll have my support.
Saying "Wenger Out" at every opportunity while we're still in the title race is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

You say the same thing every year which is why you're mocked.

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I'm mocked because people constantly argue against things I'm not saying rather than addressing what I am saying.

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With so many of our rivals, like Man Utd, looking so much weaker, should we really draw that much satisfaction from finally beating them this year?

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Weaker than what? Utd have a point more than they did at this stage last season.
This whole statement smacks of goalpost shifting. If we failed to beat them (as most predicted we would) then you could guarantee this place would have been flooded with "told you so's" and "nothing has changed". We sweep them aside and it's just because they're weak? They've only lost 2 league games this year and they're only 3 points off the top.

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For me, the more important signs to look out for this season will be the January transfer window. I think this is the 4th time we've been in this position where we're in the running for the title but need signings to help with our injury crisis and keep us in the hunt. We'll soon find out if lessons have been learned. It's bad enough that we've crocked our players and haven't managed fitness levels better. These are the signs you should be looking for. The problems that have plagued us for years on end and cost us.

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I don't hold out any hope we'll sign anyone of note in January and if we fail to sustain a title challenge then Wenger should be sacked. But I, for one, will at least wait till it happens rather than calling for his head after every setback regardless of whether that sees us fall out of the title race or not.

What a hero.

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Originally Posted by Arsene Wenger

You judge it after ONE game and then you judge it again after the next. The things you are listing as progress are things a club like Arsenal should be doing at a minimum - signing decent players, winning the odd minor trophy, actually getting a few results against clubs that are supposed to be rivals. Minimum. This is what Wenger does well - the bare minimum. The fact we scraped through CL qualification does not eliminate his amateur hour fucks ups in the earlier rounds. When he stops making these fucks up then people will become more confident in our ability to mount and sustain a challenge for the big prizes. It's perfectly understandable, given the history, many fans are not cheering in a new era based on us scraping through a group that contained two teams making up the numbers.

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:gp:

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

I'm mocked because people constantly argue against things I'm not saying rather than addressing what I am saying.


Weaker than what? Utd have a point more than they did at this stage last season.
This whole statement smacks of goalpost shifting. If we failed to beat them (as most predicted we would) then you could guarantee this place would have been flooded with "told you so's" and "nothing has changed". We sweep them aside and it's just because they're weak? They've only lost 2 league games this year and they're only 3 points off the top.



I don't hold out any hope we'll sign anyone of note in January and if we fail to sustain a title challenge then Wenger should be sacked. But I, for one, will at least wait till it happens rather than calling for his head after every setback regardless of whether that sees us fall out of the title race or not.

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Goal post shifting? Remember who you're talking to. Before that Utd game it's a one off result that means very little. Win, lose or draw. I didn't put much stock into that game and we had a conversation about that beforehand.

You're the one shifting goal posts with this Utd argument. You've used Utd as a cautionary tale of what can happen when switching managers. Don't act like this is the same Man Utd side can compare to Fergie's.

For crying out loud, I'm not even calling for Wenger's head. Just talking about our signs of progress and what we need to do to move forward.