Match reacton - Soton

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Originally Posted by Letters

And thank you for shirting the goalposts of this discussion which was about Wenger's priorities.

And here's Utd in 2016

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/site...lic/united.jpg

Look how disappointed they are at such a tin pot trophy.

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Just thought I'd take the opportunity to show you loading goalposts onto trucks for long distance transit. Because, one minute the Top 4 Trophy is the reason Wenger keeps his job. Next minute it's the FA Cup triumph, when the 4th place Super Trophy slips away. Always some reason to keep this tragic loser and waster nailed into his seat. And alway you, there, supporting him. Defending him at every step, interspersed with the odd post that says Wenger out, as if that's any sort of disguise at all.

Every time he's criticised - up you pop.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Looks like I was wrong and Wenger is right.

4th place IS a trophy after all.

Pep says so. Therefore, must be true.

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Well, Pep says so. Therefore, Wenger saying it isn't quite as crazy as you suppose.
And I've also provided quotes to show that 4th place is NOT Wenger's first priority.
It may be the limit of his abilities but I don't think it's the limit of his ambitions. Of course he'd like to be winning titles, what possible reason would he not want that?

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Every time he's criticised - up you pop.

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Ah, that old lie. Lazy...

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well, Pep says so. Therefore, Wenger saying it isn't quite as crazy as you suppose.
And I've also provided quotes to show that 4th place is NOT Wenger's first priority.
It may be the limit of his abilities but I don't think it's the limit of his ambitions. Of course he'd like to be winning titles, what possible reason would he not want that?

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For the possible and ACTUAL reason that it would threaten his and Stan's cosy sustainability model, that our owners might have to dig in their own pockets, that the share price might run out of jet fuel, that the cosy situation as it stands might be jeopardised if Wenger was forced out from behind his excuses to actually compete with these top clubs whose managers all beat his arse on a regular basis. COMFORTABLE and very, very LUCRATIVE for the few. A never changing march to mediocrity in return for world leading costs for the rest. WHY would they want to change that? That's the question. Sustainability is a sick euphemism. It's the finely honed formula for extracting the maximum possible in return for the bare minimal input. Wenger is a genius all right, but not in the way any fan should be able to stomach.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Ah, that old lie. Lazy...

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And yet here you are, as always. And old lie with thousands of individual pieces of evidence that says it's the truth.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well, Pep says so. Therefore, Wenger saying it isn't quite as crazy as you suppose.
And I've also provided quotes to show that 4th place is NOT Wenger's first priority.
It may be the limit of his abilities but I don't think it's the limit of his ambitions. Of course he'd like to be winning titles, what possible reason would he not want that?

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Pep always makes his teams competitive in all fairness, when do you see him settling for 4th place or not trying to improve the team?

I think 4th place is his priority, he doesnt look particularly concerned that he's out of the title race fairly early on every year, if anything he doesn't look too unhappy right now, no real criticism coming out, no mention of needing changing despite being absolute miles behind, he's got a pretty positivie demeanour if anything because his precious 4th place trophy he cares about so much is still up for grabs luckily, this despite a shocking performance by his team for most of the season.

There's absolutley zero indication his priority is anythig but top 4, he doesn't buy the right or enough players, he makes no changes to things that fail regularly, he signs avergae nobodies like Xhaka, plays players out of position when it makes no sense, I just don't see how anyone can say he's in it to win when there's no evidence of that at all, he can say it 100% it doesn't mean it's true, actions speak louder than words and as weve seen over the years his words don't mean an awful lot.

10+ years of being also rans and the guy is still preaching about our quality and spirit, please enough now, you don't come 2dn/3rd/4th/5th for 10+ years and act like you're doing a great job and that it's an amazing achievement.

Remember his comments about qualifying for the CL for x amount of years, what he failed to point out is the numerous humiliating thrashings at the hand of decent teams, or his abysmal record in Europe overall. He's a public speaker a good one, he makes bad things sound good and people buy into it, just like they did at the AGM saying look at Wenger what a great guy he's the only one who comes out of this with any credit.

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Originally Posted by Letters

What is your basis for saying that?

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His general demeanour on top of all the facts over the years, it's because 4th place is still up for grabs an that's frankly what he wants, the title and CL is for other clubs.

He has turned this whole club into a losers club, where the players, where many fans and hierarchy are very happy to be 2nd best and 2nd rate, they're proud of it in fact, as someone said a 0-0 with Chelsea and a defeat to Man U at home are pointed out as if they were a trophy on the mantlepiece, 1 point out of 2 games, 5 dropped, a 16.66667% return is somehow something to be proud of.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

And yet here you are, as always. And old lie with thousands of individual pieces of evidence that says it's the truth.

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I'm not sure you understand how messageboards work. If everyone agreed about everything then there would be nothing to discuss.
I could give a :goodpost: to something I agreed with but otherwise there would be nothing to add.

So, in general, I reply to things I disagree with to debate the issues. And because of the mood on here, that tends to be the excesses of negative opinion about Wenger which I don't agree with.
If there was "a Ty" on here who relentlessly believed that Wenger will soon be delivering us titles again then I would disagree with them too and be debating those issues, but there isn't.
(Arguably a shame, a wider range of opinions can only be a good thing on a messageboard)

So yes, I respond to things I think are incorrect whether that's about Wenger or global warming or whatever. That's what debate is.
I don't think he's just in it for the money. I do think he still wants to deliver the biggest prizes.
I don't think it's a complicated concept that someone can think those things and also believe Wenger should be sacked.

But I don't respond to every criticism and you know I don't.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Just thought I'd take the opportunity to show you loading goalposts onto trucks for long distance transit. Because, one minute the Top 4 Trophy is the reason Wenger keeps his job. Next minute it's the FA Cup triumph, when the 4th place Super Trophy slips away. Always some reason to keep this tragic loser and waster nailed into his seat. And alway you, there, supporting him. Defending him at every step, interspersed with the odd post that says Wenger out, as if that's any sort of disguise at all.

Every time he's criticised - up you pop.

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If he didn't, there wouldn't be much to discuss.

The relative merits of qualifying for the CL and ewinning the FA Cup fluctuate with where we are as a Club. If you asked me 5 years ago, what was more important, I'd say the FA Cup in a heartbeat.

Why? Because like others, I though a trophy win was all it was going to take for us to push on to bigger things. Like others, perhaps including yourself, I was wrong.

As wrong as it was possible to be.

The comeback against Hull in that final has done nothing but inflict another 5 years (and counting) banality on this club.

Wenger is right where he positions the relative importance of the FA Cup and CL qualification - for any normal team that is. For us, it is of no conswquence, we won't push on no matter what while Wenger is manager and anyone else managing our club may do better, but they'll be severely handicapped by Kroenke.

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Originally Posted by Özim

His general demeanour on top of all the facts over the years, it's because 4th place is still up for grabs an that's frankly what he wants, the title and CL is for other clubs.

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Again, not true. I've already produced a quote where he says the exact opposite. I gave the link above:

"For me, there are five 'trophies' – the first is to win the Premier League, the second is to win the Champions League, the third is to qualify for the Champions League, the fourth is to win the FA Cup and the fifth is to win the League Cup. I say that because if you want to attract the best players, they do not ask 'did you win the League Cup?', they ask you 'do you play in the Champions League?'."

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He has turned this whole club into a losers club, where the players, where many fans and hierarchy are very happy to be 2nd best and 2nd rate, they're proud of it in fact, as someone said a 0-0 with Chelsea and a defeat to Man U at home are pointed out as if they were a trophy on the mantlepiece, 1 point out of 2 games, 5 dropped, a 16.66667% return is somehow something to be proud of.

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That is a complete straw man argument. Who has said those two results are anything to be proud of? I do think failure is too easily accepted at the club BUT that is because the board define success in a different way to the fans.