Match Reaction v Brighton (away).

At the time, many fans were saying that if Wenger didn't go, and go quickly, he'd do structural damage that would reduce us to mid-table status. Many other fans laughed at that notion. But it was pretty obvious. Anyone who watched us going from dominating games to barely being able to compete in them, while Wenger sang the praises of mediocre players who were "doing their own thing" and training themselves, could see the writing on the wall that Wenger was oblivious to. And he instilled the culture of second best upwards as well and down, and it was gratefully accepted no doubt.

The virus spread everywhere, infected everything and had the worst effect on the squad who gradually transformed from warriors who fought from the tunnel to the final whistle (and often afterwards), to pigmies who couldn't go five minutes without an injury and were simply brushed aside by more robust opponents. The football fell apart and Wenger encouraged it. "We lacked a little bit sharpness." Code for we were outfought on every level.

That's what Emery inherited and, unfortunately, he wasn't nearly strong enough to whip this spoiled squad into shape. The players ate him up. Now, I suppose, they'll try to do the same with Arteta and the only way he's really going to win this is by putting his foot down and getting rid of half of them. But where will the replacements come from? Wenger sold Stan on sustainability (and probably lost half his arm during the pitch). Wenger's culture of failure is cemented into the club, every player he touched carries the concrete boots of his legacy (or have already run a million miles in the opposite direction). Emery was a big name but not big enough. The biggest flaw with hiring Arteta was the hope the squad would respect a rookie. Plainly they don't. Once the honeymoon was over (2 games was it?) it was a rapid return to the old ways. I reckon Pep or Klopp would struggle here. Players who have lost the will to win? No money from Kroenke?

Wenger lit the fires and watched them burn while he fiddled here and fiddled there. But it'll take a while for the whole thing to burn down. It's burning from the inside out, so it still looks intact from a distance and it might be a few seasons yet before we face our first serious relegation battle. I can't see it going the other way, unless Kroenke can be shifted. Why would he want to go though?

As for spending - it's not spending like you'll see at Liverpool or City, is it? Or Utd. When we spend, the money has to come back from somewhere, or the following season needs to be sacrificed. And even when we do spend, we end up with Pepe. Pepe might be a decent player is a free-flowing, attacking team. But who thought he'd tear it up in a team that plays at 1mph, with back to the opponent's goal and tapping sideways and backwards? Kante was the player we needed, not Pepe. Next time we spend it will be on the back of Auba heading out. And with inflation rampant, what are you going to get for a replacement? We've spent, but we haven't spend well. Which is pretty much the same as under Wenger. There were exceptions, there are exceptions now. But much of the business we have done is inexplicable in a football sense. Not much has changed. Still a shitshow.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

At the time, many fans were saying that if Wenger didn't go, and go quickly, he'd do structural damage that would reduce us to mid-table status.

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Actually, what many fans were saying was that if Wenger stayed we would end up in mid-table under him - never happened, people were saying it for years and we were never a mid-table side under him, not even in his last season which was by far his worst. And many fans also said that he was so incompetent than anyone would come in and we would do better - nope again, after one season where there was a tiny bit of improvement we have crashed and burned.

This apparently terrible squad Wenger left us with finished 5th last year, a couple of points off 3rd. We were as good (or bad, let's face it, the top 2 aside this is not a good league) as anyone. And we got to the Europa League final. That's what the squad Wenger left us with was capable of. It was a decent platform to build on.

Things went to shit this year, under Emery. Now, it's still largely Wenger's squad of course so fine, he doesn't get off scott free. But even in his last season he got them to finish 6th. How did he do that if he was so awful? And how did Emery get them to finish 5th if the squad is so awful?

You and others were for years were saying that Wenger was so bad that anyone would do better.
You were wrong, you have been proven wrong no matter how much you try and reframe the evidence and retrospectively try and amend your claims.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Actually, what many fans were saying was that if Wenger stayed we would end up in mid-table under him - never happened, people were saying it for years and we were never a mid-table side under him, not even in his last season which was by far his worst. And many fans also said that he was so incompetent than anyone would come in and we would do better - nope again, after one season where there was a tiny bit of improvement we have crashed and burned.

This apparently terrible squad Wenger left us with finished 5th last year, a couple of points off 3rd. We were as good (or bad, let's face it, the top 2 aside this is not a good league) as anyone. And we got to the Europa League final. That's what the squad Wenger left us with was capable of. It was a decent platform to build on.

Things went to shit this year, under Emery. Now, it's still largely Wenger's squad of course so fine, he doesn't get off scott free. But even in his last season he got them to finish 6th. How did he do that if he was so awful? And how did Emery get them to finish 5th if the squad is so awful?

You and others were for years were saying that Wenger was so bad that anyone would do better.
You were wrong, you have been proven wrong no matter how much you try and reframe the evidence and retrospectively try and amend your claims.

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You know that when a car goes off a cliff you don't die until you hit the bottom? I just explained how Wenger baked failure into every aspect of the club. A club that had been competing right at the top of the game. It takes time to go from hero to zero, doesn't happen overnight. Our players aren't individually terrible. Some of them are, but some are competent enough. But when you have a catastrophic culture, prehistoric methods and a complete inability to recognise developing problems (which were Wenger's chief achievements and attributes in his final years) it's going to make it harder for anyone or everyone to turn things around. So far nobody has been able to repair the damage. Emery came closest until he ran into Wenger's love affair with collapse and capitulation he'd shared with every player. Those players are nowhere near good enough to do it on their own. The last manager was nowhere near strong enough to do it on his own. Arteta is ambitious, eager, probably thinks he can do a job. But I doubt anyone can. Wenger comprehensively Wrecked it from top to bottom. No stone was left untuned. We'll be paying the price for a long time. Look how long Liverpool were in the dark, and Utd before them.

Right. Except...that's not what you were saying when Wenger was here.
Back then it was "he's so incompetent that anyone could do better". Lots of people were saying it was him dragging us down and when he'd left we'd do better.
Now when that has been quite clearly shown to be wrong you're changing your stance.
Which I guess is fine, we have more data now. But be a good chap and admit it.

I remember many saying, I was one of them, the longer he stayed the more likely it would be that we’d pass the tipping point.

And some years before that I was saying if we kept selling off our best players we’d do the same.

Arsenal kept Wenger too long and we sold off far too much talent - and on the cheap.

The result is the shambles of a structure we see now.

Letters will never accept that Wenger was to blame.....and even if he was to blame. He was really wasn't to blame

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Originally Posted by Letters

Right. Except...that's not what you were saying when Wenger was here.
Back then it was "he's so incompetent that anyone could do better". Lots of people were saying it was him dragging us down and when he'd left we'd do better.
Now when that has been quite clearly shown to be wrong you're changing your stance.
Which I guess is fine, we have more data now. But be a good chap and admit it.

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Except I'm not changing anything. I said Wenger would destroy the club. And he did. We can see the results with our own eyes. I'm not sure why this is even a debate any more.

I'm not trying to take away his earlier achievements. Some of the high points in my life revolve around his early achievements. I won't swap those and I won't have a word said against Wenger in those days. But he was a one-trick pony and as soon as everyone else copied him (and you get extra credit when everyone else copies you) he had nothing else. It's just a fact. And for a decade, he lived on past reputation while delivering - nothing else. And every fucker bought right into it, especially our board. And so we became the most mediocre club on the planet. A club rich in culture, tradition, and even money - that has zero ambition. Wenger served that up on a plate to the nothings that own this club now. Wenger demanded nothing, everyone delivered nothing. And that became the culture of the club. He thought his vision was enough to overturn the cynicism and cold, calculating methods of his rivals was the right way to proceed. That was foolish. He was routed. I admire his principle, but I hate that spirit he always claimed we possessed. Because we didn't. It was that lack of spirit that killed the whole club. We became victims instead of winners. Everyone cheated us, we were so unlucky, we gloriously failed - but the one thing you could be sure of - we failed. Wenger's legacy. Because he stayed too long.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

He was really wasn't to blame

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Was that a deliberately self-contradictory statement? :wacko:

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Was that a deliberately self-contradictory statement?

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He's predicting what Letters is going to say next.