You tell me. Ronaldo has done better than Messi in this tournament but you say both have been piss poor in this World Cup. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by SMatthews
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You tell me. Ronaldo has done better than Messi in this tournament but you say both have been piss poor in this World Cup. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by SMatthews
But then the best players always play for the biggest clubs, and play alongside the best. One can hardly hold it against someone for winning too much. I don't care for the Messi/Ronaldo debate, but it seems a tad arbitrary to say because one player won one tournament, when he barely played in the final, it therefore makes him better than someone who hasn't. There's too much going on that is out of the player's hands. An £80m striker in Higuain misses however many one on ones across however many finals, whereas a raffle winner called Eder smashes one in from 30 yards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
And it works the other way as well. If Argentina won the Copa America next year, but Messi missed/came off in the final, that doesn't suddenly legitimise him as a better player. It's probably fair to say one had a better tournament than the other (a large part of that comes down to the Spain game, where they clearly had a game plan, and a performance they didn't repeat imo) but then Portugal didn't even get out of the groups in 2014 and Ronaldo only scored one, whereas Messi scored 4, scoring decisive goals in every group game.
I think what I'm trying to say is, the world would be a better place if there was never another one of these debates.
All I know is Messi makes me smile. Ronaldo for all his talent makes me wish i could kick him. However, I once lined up against his waxworks at Mdme Tussauds. He is one big Mfker.
I was in traffic during this match. Just seen the highlights. Marcus Rojo!!!. What a bell end. Did he think he was at OT while shoving Mbappe twice for the pen?
The best players play for the biggest clubs but at the very top level when people compare greats it starts coming down to the fine margins. I prefer Messi but I can also understand why people prefer Ronaldo. In football, people always ask these questions. You see a player killing it for a smaller club, you wonder if he can do it with a bigger club. Can they do it in Europe. How about in another league or at international level. For me, Ronaldo has done it all so I don't really have much else to question about his ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karius Is Boss
I think Messi is retiring from International football soon. Still a great player but outside of the Ronaldo comparison, he has the Maradonna comparison on his shoulders and they've always hoped he'd surpass Maradona. Has he? You may hate these type of debates but they'll continue because everyone will want to discuss the greatest of all time. International records get dragged into the conversation because of the greats like Maradona and Pele.
We all grew up watching Ronaldo in the Prem and hating his guts. Show pony! But as the years have gone by and I've seen how hard he's worked, I can't help but respect it. I'm not a hater when it comes to hard work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Messi. :haha:
Argentina. :haha:
Kibbles is making the exact same point I was making. Pele is an interesting one because he did it all on the international stage but at club level he stayed in Brazil (I'm ignoring his time in America!), we'll never know how he would have done in one of the big leagues in Europe. And certainly in 1970 Pele was in one of the great International sides, neither Messi or Ronaldo have been. And this is where comparisons at international level get tricky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
George Best was one of the GOATs IMO. He made a complete hash of his career but in terms of raw talent he could have been up there with any of the others in consideration. But he was Northern Irish so was never going to achieve anything of note at international level. I'm not saying that Ronaldo and Messi's international careers are irrelevant to this debate, but I would question how much weight to give a Euro 2016 medal given the way they scraped through the whole tournament, the sides they faced and, when we're talking about Ronaldo, the fact he sat out most of the final which was the only really top side they played. I think it's fair to say that they wouldn't have won it without him, he's clearly their best player. But I reject any notion that he was a big part of dragging a mediocre Portugal team to glory against Europe's best. It's like in 1992 when Liverpool won the FA Cup. Their route to the final was:
Crewe (A)
Bristol Rovers (A) - won on a replay
Ipswich Town (A) - won on a replay
Aston Villa (H)
Portsmouth (N) - won after a reply on penalties
Sunderland (N) - Sunderland were in the second division at the time.
It still counts but you'd have to add less weight to it as an achievement for the players and manager than had they faced some really top teams. I love Globalgunner's quote above:
Exactly how I feel. IMO they're both two of the GOATs though, it's not a debate which can ever be definitively resolved. But there's not as much between them as some people on either side of the debate like to pretend.Quote:
All I know is Messi makes me smile. Ronaldo for all his talent makes me wish i could kick him.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/20...0371142206.jpg
Otamendi subtly squirts Giroud with water during a drinks break.
The guy is such a cunt! :lol::lol:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...Argentina.html
There’s nothing between them. It’s a matter of opinion as to who you prefer. Messi is a gifted genius and Ronaldo is a genetic freak. 5 years ago I don’t think there was a debate to be had but Ronaldo has somehow enjoyed the best years of his career when he should have been preparing for the scrap heap and that’s down to his incredible dedication to the sport.
I’m glad at least one of them has an international honour to his name, both couldn’t be more deserving.
IMO The CL is the most quality filled and hardest competition in the world to win, so I don’t believe Messi needs to prove anything really. Messi should at least have a Copa America title but he fluffed his lines, shit happens and I don’t think it’s the be all and end all.
It does make me laugh though how Ronaldo’s success seems to trigger a lot of people but that’s the internet I suppose. :lol:
Glad France and Uruguay won so we can watch the remainder of the World Cup without this insufferable who’s the GOAT narrative.
We're only talking about what Messi and Ronaldo achieved at International level because of the fine margins. It's so hard to separate what the two have achieved at club level because they've both won everything. Hence the focus on International football. Both have had their disappointments at International level but I think Messi will retire feeling slightly unsatisfied at that level because he didn't win anything and he's made it to World Cup and Copa America finals. He hasn't really performed at the same level we know he can perform at club level. It happens. Still a great player and will go down as one of the greatest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
You bring up George Best, his international career, the fact that playing for Northern Ireland meant he'd never be a favorite to win a Euro or World Cup, but fail to see the point being made about Ronaldo and Portugal. Regardless of the path taken, if George Best somehow won a major tournament with Northern Ireland, you have to give him some credit. No, it's not one man doing it alone but he played his part to help win it. Same applies for Ronaldo and Portugal. They've never won a Euro before and before Ronaldo, had never made it to a final. They're not a nation like Italy, Holland or Germany. They're not constantly churning out the World's best players. They're not utter shite like Northern Ireland but they've never won the Euros before. Argentina on the other hand have been churning out some of the world's finest for years and there is always that expectation that they will be a tough team to beat
Despite not playing much in the final, Ronaldo got the goal and assist in extra time that got Portugal to the final. Despite Portugal playing shite throughout the tournament, he got the 2 goals and assist that got them past the group stage. They would have gone out otherwise. Despite the opposition, those are big moments. We scored 3 goals with 3 assists.
We've seen the disappointment at Arsenal when we're playing really shit against opposition that aren't that great themselves and nobody steps their game up. It's funny how you're critical of the path taken to win the tournament. I've seen people make the exact same point about some of our FA Cup wins and you've shut it down. When I've criticized Ozil, you've brought up his FA Cup trophies and his World Cup with Germany. What's his record in those competitions? He's never scored or got an assist in any of the finals. FA Cup and World Cup. The biggest team he's scored against in the FA Cup is Everton where he got a goal and assist in the QF for our first FA Cup win. Other than that, he only got an assist against Coventry. Does that rub some of the shine off that FA Cup victory for Ozil? 2nd FA Cup he registered 1 goal and 2 assists. The goal came against Brighton in the 4th round. 2 assist against Reading in the semis. Is that something to write home about? Our hardest FA Cup win was the last one where we played Chelsea in the final, City in the semis. Ozil only registered an assist against Lincoln City in the 6th round. A team we battered 6 nil. The World Cup is similar. A goal against Algeria and assist against Brazil who were battered 7-1. A 90th minute assist. It's funny how far you've gone to analyse Ronaldo's record but have always been quick to dismiss the same point made about our FA Cup victories and Ozil.
Again, just to make things clear, I'm not saying Ronaldo dragged Portugal to win the Euros on his own but you can't deny he made a vital contribution and it's just another way to try and measure the fine margins between the whole Messi and Ronaldo debate. Neither have glowing CV's at International level but I think Ronaldo pips him slightly.
Spot on
So we all agree Ronaldo > Messi? Great
There really is no debate. They are both the best players of the last 10 years. Objectively if you want to make distinctions. You can say that Ronaldo only scores goals. A facile argument to some but that really is the crux of it. Ronaldo scores goals while Messi makes memories. All we ever remember about Ronaldo are the goal scoring stats. When he was younger, at Utd, he actually did things that stuck in the mind. Like the 40 yard freekick that embarrassed Almunia and recently the overhead kick in the CL which was soon bettered by Bale. What irritates purists like me is that of recent the ONLY thing Ronaldo is concerned with IS scoring goals. He demands the ball everytime, waits in the box for the ball, still does those stupid stepovers that wouldnt fool my grandma and preens like an Cockatoo before and after each play. He thinks scoring more headers pens and tap ins makes him the greatest player ever. By that reasoning: Gerd Muller would also be considered amongst the greatest players ever, which he isnt. Only as amongst the greatest goal scorers ever.
When I think of Messi. I think of incredible standing start acceleration. Tiny legs whirling like a cartoon character as he weaves past players with the ball proverbially tied to his feet. I will remember the brutality meted out against him by bludgeon brothers like Pepe and Ramos. In years to come I will tell my grandkids of his teeth being knocked out in a Classico match and him ending the game bloodied but standing with his shirt held to the fans at the Bernabeu after scoring the winner with a magic individual goal. I don't care that Messi never won the WC he is no less a player in my mind because of it. Those things are extremely hard to win. Just like Cruyff never won it
Its about memories and I prefer memories to statistics. They are much easier to recall.
P.S. There is also no doubt Sampaoli is a certified nincompoop. Picked the wrong team in every match. Mascherano had no business being in that team and no space for Dybala?
I said both have been terrible in the knock out stages at every World Cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
Pound for pound one of the worst posts I have ever read :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Actually agree with a fair amount of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
Overall I'd agree that Messi has had a disappointing international career. I also agree Portugal wouldn't have won the Euros were it not for Ronaldo. They're not a nation like Italy, Holland or Germany but they didn't have to play any of those sides on their way to the trophy either. Their path to the final and the fact Ronaldo played only a bit part in the final does, IMO, make it a weak argument as the reason to separate Messi and Ronaldo.
People have made the same argument about Arsenal's FA Cup wins but the people doing so are the kind of bitter people who were using it as an argument to deny Wenger any credit for the win. And you may say I'm doing the same here, but their argument didn't stand up to any scrutiny. In 2014 Our semi-final and final opponents were admittedly easy games (even if we did make hard work of beating them!) but to get there we'd had to beat Spurs, Liverpool and Everton who all finished in the top 6 that season. We did get all those teams at home but still, it's hardly the easy route to the trophy I outlined when Liverpool won it that time.
Compare and contrast Portugal's win to Spain's 4 years previously, Spain won their group drawing with Italy and beating Croatia and Republic of Ireland. (Portugal finished 3rd in their group and didn't win any of their group games).
Then in the knockouts Spain beat France, Portugal and Italy.
That is an objectively tougher and more impressive route to winning the competition than Portugal's.
When you've criticized Ozil I've generally brought up his assist stats - I mean, that's his job and he's been doing it. Not sure if I've mentioned the FA Cups, I've certainly not argued he was instrumental in us winning them. I've probably brought up the World Cup because he was first choice in a team which won it which indicates a certain quality and their route to the trophy was pretty impressive too. So I may have used these things to argue that Ozi is quality but I'm not arguing here that Ronaldo isn't quality. I actually agree MO, there's nothing between them - I looked up the Balon D'Or and they've both won it 5 times and finished 2nd 5 times! Messi finished 3rd once, that's the only difference, but that is also a week argument to distinguish them.
I think the fact that Ronaldo has done it in two different leagues is a better argument, but I still wouldn't say there's much between them.
Neither Ronaldo or Messi are fit to lace the boots of the genuine greats. It's only because they are playing today they are even considered. A ton of hype is loaded on them to keep the money bandwagon rolling along, and that's their real contribution. Otherwise they both play in a totally lopsided league and they probably have contract clauses that force their teammates to pass to them. Messi's a super technical player, one of the best technical players no doubt. But a "great"? With not a single decent international performance to his name? WTF? People need to get serious. And that cheating cunt Penaldo, who has disgraced the game for every moment he's played. A great? Fuck off. He wouldn't have even got into the great teams of the past. It;s almost as if nobody he seen Pele or Zico play football. Or more recently, the real Ronaldo. Or a string of other greats. Sure, if you ignore all of them Messi and Ronaldo are #1 and #2.
:lol:
Homosexual attraction is not part of the calculation, so there goes your whole case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cripps
:lol: that would work if I wasn't completely against it.
That's been my overall argument. Glad we can agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The whole international debate is just to split hairs. But add that to what I've argued about about Ronaldo proving himself in the Prem as well as the La Liga, as you've said at the end, I think that shows that Ronaldo has proven that he's able to adapt. Not saying Messi can't but he's only ever played for one club where he's always been king and treated as such. Ronaldo had to prove himself at Utd under Fergie, earn the respect of the press who thought he was just another show-pony 'johnny foreigner'. After proving himself with Utd, he had to live up to being the World's most expensive player at Real Madrid. I honestly thought he'd flop and not surpass the last couple of seasons he put in at Utd. I was wrong. But we've seen it happen to so many others. After a massive transfer fee has been paid for them they often fail to live up to the hype. To Ronaldo's credit, he lived up to the hype.
I still think Messi is the better player overall but I think Ronaldo has gone through way more hurdles and conquered them compared to Messi. Mentally that is. I'm not sure how Messi would cope with moving to another league, having that massive price tag over him and having to live up to the hype whilst stamping his dominance in a dressing room full of egos. Not saying he can't do it, he just hasn't done it to say he can. International football is a different beast, but I have slight doubts about how he'd do because of what I've seen of him at International level. I guess we'll never know.
Definitely not old enough to have seen Pele but the real Ronaldo was a phenomenal player in his prime. Best striker I've ever seen. But his best form didn't last as long as it should/could have. The injuries really messed him up and I always thought that's the reason why he couldn't play like he used to. But it turns out he hated training. We saw him get fat. We heard at the parties. I give C. Ronaldo and Messi a lot of credit for staying at the top of their game and peak condition for over 10 years despite winning almost everything there is to win. Most players ease off the gas after a few league titles and CL titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Yes, I do give them credit for that. To a degree. Messi and Penaldo are like PLCs. The amount of cash swirling around them is probably more than the wages of every player who ever played up to maybe the 80s when the stupidity first started to creep in. So they stay at the top maybe because they love the game (highly doubtful, having seen them both play), maybe because they are an industry in their own right (by maybe, I mean definitely). It's a money thing with those guys. Big money. Big hype. I don't think either player has been particularly brilliant for a couple of years now, but they hype keeps rolling. Not saying they are bad players, of course not. But greatest of all time? It's ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
You get a mildly entertaining game these days and it's dubbed a classic. You get a half decent goal and they ask, best of all time? All hype, because they game is entirely focused on generating cash. Hype is sky high and charge accordingly. I heard England/ Columbia tickets are going for £600+. To watch a team that can barely play. That's how success is measured these days, how much cash was generated. And wherever the cash vampires sniff a profit, that's where the hype hose is directed.
And the pundits are wilfully blind. The other day they saw Penaldo blatantly diving to win a free kick. The cunt then proves that cheats almost always prosper by sticking the ball in the net. What do the pundits say? What a cheating cunt! Or, greatest performance of all time? They're a laughing stock.
Another thing with these modern "greats". Look who they are playing with. Turds. The likes of Fallaini FFS! Of course an above average player looks like a world beater. Most pubbers these days can't tackle, can't pass, can't cross, can't shoot. They run around a lot covering space and being as negative as their hyped up manager demands. It's supposed to be genius but, in reality, it kills the game. So you get those turds huffing and puffing around the place, stealing their 50K or 100K a week, and then you have a handful of players who can actually play. And then you have a select few who can play well. Then you have two who are a cut above the rest. Greatest of all time? Must be. Cash depends on it.
NQ your cynicism about football and life in general is unhealthy.
Which part do you imagine is not 100% accurate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Power n Glory
I'm not concerned at not being delusional enough.