The thing is, a lot have fans have stopped or reduced their attendance at matches. These people then get replaced by others. Additionally, there is little desire amongst fans to destroy the Club.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
The thing is, a lot have fans have stopped or reduced their attendance at matches. These people then get replaced by others. Additionally, there is little desire amongst fans to destroy the Club.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
I don't believe it would destroy the club though, perhaps give the people at the top a reality check however. In addition I don't understand why people don't demonstrate against the regime more at games, they seem to get away with murder without so much as a peep from the fans, this shouldn't be directed at the team but the board deserve criticism as does the manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
I just despise their current attitude that they can say and do whatever they want, you can just tell from the words they come out with they don't listen to any fans concerns and at times tell them to put up and shut up.
We basically have people at the top who don't give a sh*t about the football which is a problem, they're not really fans (unlike some of the owners who buy clubs these days).
That's a nice description of the British (and global) economy in general. You name one corporation that gives a shit about you once it has your money. That's just the way it is, football has caught up with the other bullshit all around us. From price fixing energy cartels through fucked up water companies, price-rigging supermarkets that drive local business into the gutter, extortion on the railways, just keep adding to the list until everything is included. There's no customer service any more, no corporate responsibility beyond the marketing campaign. This is what happens when big money comes into football, you get a better stadium and a worse experience. The stadium's not for you and you can be replaced any time. More of the money goes into the hands of fewer people, your money buys you a whole lot less (that's after you've been taxed to death and the rest has been inflated away). Does that make it right? No way. But it's not just people who refuse to attend football matches, everyone happily takes it in the arse without a murmur so expecting Arsenal to be different is a little naive. We have endorsed this kind of corporate bullshit through decades of complacency and this is the inevitable outcome. You want to change Arsenal then you need to set your sights a lot, lot higher than getting rid of Wenger. He's the least of your worries.Quote:
I just despise their current attitude that they can say and do whatever they want, you can just tell from the words they come out with they don't listen to any fans concerns and at times tell them to put up and shut up.
Exactamundo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Footballs a business these days, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
No owner cares about the fans as much as they say they do, as long as the money is coming it its good. only diffrence is some oweners see Chucking around as the soloution to their problems and won't stop till they get it right.
All this Arsenal fans are being mugged of is silly, fans know what the board is about if they still go its their choice.
if a season ticket is not costly to you and your happy not to turn up to games then i doubt you care how the board spoke to you.
I've gone to far less games this season - in fact probably the lowest amount of games since I arrived in London around 21 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
But when I go, I get behind the team. I can't help it, because that is what being a fan is about.
The people at other Clubs that demonstrate against their Club generally tend to be demonstrating against Clubs that have gone or are on track to get relegated. I can't think of any fans of Clubs demonstrating against a team that has never finished lower than 4th.
I know we can and should be doing better than we are - but I doubt we will and the reason why is that Wenger only cares about the League - the Board also seem to do so - possibly for different or overlapping reasons. I think Wenger wants to win it but does not have the capability and/or resources to win it any more. The Board I believe are contento finish in a CL place to get the money.
Wenger does not care about the domestic cups - or at least cares far less about them than the League while the Board don't seem to care because that is not where the money is.
So as long as we aim to win the League without having the resources and making the investment to do it, while not caring a great deal about the cups, we are unlikely to win anything at all.
If we want to win cups, I'm pretty certain it will be at the expense of League position because of the resources we have or are willing to deploy. Some people would be happy for us to do that, others would not. Me, myself, I'm unsure - I'd love to win something, but the League is our bread and butter. I also look at Liverpool - they've won something, made the final of another cup, but their fans are not happy at all. They also have the added problem of being managed by a club legend who I reckon would otherwise have attracted fan protest such has been the appalling state of their team this season.
"When you talk to Arsenal's stadium manager, he is not competing for business with Spurs, he is competing with Islington High Street."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17977841
Different game now, the fan is part of a much broader profit equation.
This is the problem as soon as the Uefa let us have 4 places in the CL we saw how the cups began to suffer and has been treated by shite by the big clubs. I mean look how poor the fa cup final was and look how the fa treat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Like you say AW don't care about the CC im sure he was upset to loose it last season but its not on his agenda. Same as the Fa cup.
IMO take away the 4th spot as a cl Prize and the teams that win the Fa cup get in the Cl we'd then see the board And Aw change their tune.
The reason i'm miffed At Aw was not becaue we never won the league or the Cl but we should have won the domestic cups simple as no excues.
And his attiude and his players attitude towards it has been silly and disrespectful.
as i've said to you before - go to a game or two, it doesn't have to be arsenal, go anywhere and see if you actually care about the game you are watchin. analysing why a fan does what he does from online has no relation to actually being in the stadium, shouting on your team and hoping for the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
calling for demonstrations from the internet does not make any sense and seems a far easier cop out than saying that those who pay for entertainment and to escape from the working week are just putting up with crap.
at the stadium we have given the manager and the players hell when needed, growing far more intense season on season but do you seriously think there would be a mass exodus or people turning their backs and walking out of games whilst playing? seriously, reconnect yourself to what being a fan is before you assume that those forking out every week are being too mild mannered.
Some of the decisions he's made, it has to be said, are baffling.Quote:
As mentioned above, it might hurt him at the time, but he soon seems to forget...how else can you explain what he does in the transfer market and how stubborn he is after years of failure?
Is he restricted in the transfer market? He certainly is by poor commercial deals and the stadium debt, we cannot compete financially with Chelsea, ManYoo or City. But is he restricting himself further? If so, why?
Is it a principle thing? He thinks transfer fees have gone nuts and refuses to pay them? If so then I kinda agree with him but unfortunately you have to play the game these days, he's certainly playing the 'high wages' game. Sometimes to players who don't really deserve it.
Is he looking longer term? Trying to clear the stadium debt as soon as possible, trying to keep us reasonably competitive in the meantime and pushing on when we can compete better in the transfer market? Possibly. Again, I can see the sense in that but I think there's a middle ground of spending more without jepordising our future.
No, you can't. But you can't ignore top 4 finishes every year either. You say it's not that great an achievement. Really? In an era of billionaire owners buying titles and other clubs mortgaging themselves up to the eyeballs trying to achieve it? Name me another manager who has achieved it for the length of time Wenger has. Fergie, obviously. No-one else though.Quote:
The first part of his spell was great that's true, but look at his overally record, I wouldn't say it's that fantastic, you can't ignore 7 years without a trophy.
In the Graham days, as you say, only the top side qualified for the European Cup. I completely agree it should still be that way but there you go, it is what it is. And the fact that the top 4 qualify and that the money has gone nuts means that a top 4 finish is more important both financially and in terms of prestige (because you qualify for the CL) than winning a domestic Cup. Our only hope of keeping RvP is qualifying for the CL next year, something which none of us really expected us to do for much of this season. In the Graham era we could sacrifice league form for the cups, we can't afford to do that now. If anything we have to do the opposite. In the Thoroughly Enjoyable ™ 92/93 season we won both Cups (very narrowly, both could have gone the other way and we'd have been left with nothing) but the league form was embarrassing. After a decent start it was pretty much relegation form. Awful football. We only won 15 out of 42 league games and only scored 40 goals. Thoroughly enjoyable? Really? Looking back with rose-tinted glasses at the end result of the season it was a good one but had the FA Cup gone the other way, and it could have, we'd have been left with just the league cup and an awful league season a bit like Liverpool's season this year. Fine lines.
You say his signings haven't been good but, again, top 4 finishes. Every year.
How can you achieve that with such poor players? This year we have been propped up by RvP but Wenger signed and persisted with him despite his injury record. That has paid off. You can't complain about his transfer dealings on the one hand and then deny him credit when one of his signings has a world class season.
Top 4 shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, I agree. But it has become the number one priority for all top clubs these days. Qualifying for the CL is more important than anything. It shouldn't be like that, but that's the reality. To dismiss Wenger's achievement in doing that year on year is just going out of your way to deny him any credit for anything. We should have picked up some trophies along the way for sure, but if Wenger was as bad as you make out we'd have been in mid-table long ago and still wouldn't have picked up any silverware.