Tony Adams: Graham was a better coach than Wenger

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Originally Posted by Boss

Not sure any point has been made.

Letters post shows why such comparisons are meaningless.

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There is another reason is is meaningless and that is because the opposition we faced in Graham's era is not the same as we are facing now and have been in the last few years - the game has changed considerably. Graham did not have to face Ferguson's manu which, I hate to say, is the strongest team overall for the last 10+ years. Also, the way refereeing is done these days, a lot of the hard play of the Graham squad would have resulted in lots of red cards - again, the comparison is not possible to make for certain.

All you can say is that in Graham's era the team was reasonably successful in the environment of that time and the Invincibles were successful in their era. How Graham would have faired in these times is impossible to be certain.

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Originally Posted by tarzan

There is another reason is is meaningless and that is because the opposition we faced in Graham's era is not the same as we are facing now and have been in the last few years - the game has changed considerably. Graham did not have to face Ferguson's manu which, I hate to say, is the strongest team overall for the last 10+ years. Also, the way refereeing is done these days, a lot of the hard play of the Graham squad would have resulted in lots of red cards - again, the comparison is not possible to make for certain.

All you can say is that in Graham's era the team was reasonably successful in the environment of that time and the Invincibles were successful in their era. How Graham would have faired in these times is impossible to be certain.

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Yes true but we're purely talking about Graham's defence, this was around for a while whilst Wenger was manager and they were top notch then too (Adams retired in 2002).

Man U of 99 were exceptional, they had top quality players and won the treble of course, Man U were weaker for a spell in when they won nothing for 3 years and this year when they've looked average despite winning the title, the rest of the time they've been top quality.

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Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner

Unless things have changed recently, the object of a defence is to prevent goals being scored: pure and simple. Thus, in only 2 of 9 seasons did the much vaunted George Graham defence beat the leaky and hopeless Arsene Wenger defence of the past 6 seasons.

I am not trying to make Wenger out to be some genius when it comes to creating or organising defences. I am trying to stop people making the George Graham defence out to be better than it was.

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Wenger is utterly incompetent in terms of coaching and organising the defence. As a result our defence is utterly incompetent. We don't need to compare opinions or statistics to know this is true, we just have to look at what goes on on the pitch. That's what ultimately counts. Our defensive statistics appear to be decent under Wenger but this is entirely misleading. Our outfield players are far more effective defenders than the abject shit we have at the back, and that includes the dross we've had in goal for years. We now play a possession game. If the opposition can't get the ball they can't score. That's where your statistics are built, on our possession game not on the capability of our defence. Graham is head and shoulders above Wenger as a coach. Plus elbows, arse and ankles too. Wenger couldn't coach a fly to land on shit, that's why we've ended up with a team of talented players who can't win. This is all self evident, just watch what goes on on the pitch. That's all you need to do to get your answers. Statistics lie but chucking away four goal leads against inferior opposition is unfortunately all too real for a Wenger "coached" defence. In all honesty it's not a question of who's the best coach, the question should be whether Wenger is a coach at all. And the answer is no, plainly not.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Wenger is utterly incompetent in terms of coaching and organising the defence. As a result our defence is utterly incompetent. We don't need to compare opinions or statistics to know this is true, we just have to look at what goes on on the pitch. That's what ultimately counts. Our defensive statistics appear to be decent under Wenger but this is entirely misleading. Our outfield players are far more effective defenders than the abject shit we have at the back, and that includes the dross we've had in goal for years. We now play a possession game. If the opposition can't get the ball they can't score. That's where your statistics are built, on our possession game not on the capability of our defence. Graham is head and shoulders above Wenger as a coach. Plus elbows, arse and ankles too. Wenger couldn't coach a fly to land on shit, that's why we've ended up with a team of talented players who can't win. This is all self evident, just watch what goes on on the pitch. That's all you need to do to get your answers. Statistics lie but chucking away four goal leads against inferior opposition is unfortunately all too real for a Wenger "coached" defence. In all honesty it's not a question of who's the best coach, the question should be whether Wenger is a coach at all. And the answer is no, plainly not.

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Most of this I agree with though I do not think AW is completely dumb.. what I think is AW's problem is his stubborn nature. He took up this whole youth policy and wanted to prove to the world that he can win titles with them. Project youth is a FAIL and if he can get his head out of his arse, I think he can do a decent job. I do not think any incompetent coach couldve won the title without having lost a game the entire season. He is an academic and he definitely knows the problems that Arsenal face on the football field... question IMO is, is AW going to accept that project youth failed and move on?

Like a mad scientist, he's trying to convince the world that his theory works in practice. This job will tip him over the edge if he keeps this up. Maybe he's just a masochist and enjoys the torture. When asked about what it takes to be manager, his response was 'you have to be prepared to suffer and sacrifice everything'. That's a bleak outlook. He thinks about football 24/7 so he knows what is what but he's stubborn.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Wenger is utterly incompetent in terms of coaching and organising the defence. As a result our defence is utterly incompetent. We don't need to compare opinions or statistics to know this is true, we just have to look at what goes on on the pitch. That's what ultimately counts. Our defensive statistics appear to be decent under Wenger but this is entirely misleading. Our outfield players are far more effective defenders than the abject shit we have at the back, and that includes the dross we've had in goal for years. We now play a possession game. If the opposition can't get the ball they can't score. That's where your statistics are built, on our possession game not on the capability of our defence. Graham is head and shoulders above Wenger as a coach. Plus elbows, arse and ankles too. Wenger couldn't coach a fly to land on shit, that's why we've ended up with a team of talented players who can't win. This is all self evident, just watch what goes on on the pitch. That's all you need to do to get your answers. Statistics lie but chucking away four goal leads against inferior opposition is unfortunately all too real for a Wenger "coached" defence. In all honesty it's not a question of who's the best coach, the question should be whether Wenger is a coach at all. And the answer is no, plainly not.

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Thanks for the balanced and reasoned response to the discussion. As I said, I was trying to show that Graham's defence were not the all conquering gods that people make them out to be.

No one thought they were all conquering gods, just better than the "unit" we have today.

I was exaggerating for dramatic emphasis.

But what struck me upon re-reading the original articles was the following:
We won the League in 1989 and 1991 but we should have done so much more – we under-achieved with that squad.

It would seem that Arsenal as a club has a tendency to under-achieve irrespective of the manager.:)

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Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner

Thanks for the balanced and reasoned response to the discussion. As I said, I was trying to show that Graham's defence were not the all conquering gods that people make them out to be.

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I'm sorry, was I supposed to say that Wenger is a competent defensive coach? A good or great coach even? Okay, I'll do it but only if you can provide a shred of evidence it's true. As far as "balanced" and "reasoned" goes, who was saying Graham's defence consisted of all-conquering gods? Anyway, Graham has gone and Wenger's in the hot seat now. Statistically it can be misleadingly argued he's competent at organising and coaching the defence. I told you why the stats are lying but you decided that was unreasonable. Shame, maybe it was a mistake to base my argument on the facts and what we have been watching week-in, week-out. Want to beat Arsenal, just lump it over the middle and out-muscle the defence, or rack up the set pieces. It's not difficult, everyone's doing it. Upshot is that's not the signature of a good defence and neither is it the mark of a good coach. Graham wouldn't have allowed it in a million years. For Wenger it is normal. Where's the comparison? There isn't one.

BTW, I didn't say Wenger was a bad manager, I said he was an incompetent coach and if you look at his terrible substitutions, his inability to change the play, his insistence on having players out of position, his blind faith in mediocre players, his total failure to correct the mistakes that have cost us time and again it underlines the case against him. You can't level any of these charges at Graham, he was the superior coach beyond a shadow of doubt. On the other hand, it turned out he didn't have Wenger's character. It's also doubtful he could have brought the squad to the higher levels Wenger achieved in his early years, mainly through the acquisition of big, pacey and talented players perfectly suited to the league (a policy now abandoned). So in some areas Wenger's been the better manager. But a better coach? No way, it's not even close.

Looks like ol' Tony's back on the sauce again if he thinks Grahams a better coach than Wenger, but then again Adams is a shit thick fuckwit.