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Really? They are building up a head of steam but when was the last time they won a good number of games in a row. They’ll drop points. We will top of course. The NLD will be key, it’s more likely to be a must not lose than a must win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chippy
Impossible to call right now. I wouldn’t make Spurs favourites right now but it’s almost certainly between us and them :sick:
66 vs 33 in our favour according to 538 which of us gets CL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
:sick:
Wrong mindset. Forget looking nervously over our shoulders at spurs - if this team is what we think it is, then there should be no thought other than looking above us and going all out to catch Chelsea.
Absolutely. Win tonight and we’re 2 points behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
The margins are very fine and a drop off in form now could be terminal but it’s all to play for. Got to aim high.
You're both right, but to me finishing 5th below Spurs feels more credible than finishing 3rd above Chelsea.
Let's see what happens tonight though, we have been passing these tests of late but this is a big one.
Palace are in great form so it's going to be a tough one.
Yeah, we can't afford any jitters, and those usually creep in when you start worrying about what's coming up behind you - better to think of yourselves as the hunters and find something ahead to chase down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Absolutely, we win tonight and beat Chelsea in a few weeks time (which is more than possible) then we will go above them. It's all to play for and we are in a battle to finish 3rd as much as we are to finish 4th.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
I have confidence in this team given what I have seen this season, but things are going to get pretty stressful these next few weeks as we have some really tricky games coming up. If we can navigate our way through tonight with a win and beat Brighton and Southampton the next few weeks then we are going to be in a really strong position irrespective of what our rivals do.
i'm afraid i think we'll lose to spuds, chelsea and Moan U, we still don't really cut it against those teams
that will wipe out our games in hand and i reckon 5th is the best we can hope for, though i think Moan U will rally and be real competition
the problem we have is our squad's so thin - sooner or later we'll lose someone important - probably Saka - and it will really affect us
The only chance we have is for Arteta to tell Xhaka to break K*** or S**'s legs
he'll be banned for three games but that's fine by me - one of those two needs to be taken out
NLD confirmed for Thursday 12th May.
My birthday. :sick:
argh man, that's bad :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Or maybe not :faint:Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Doesn't matter now. If Palace can ass fu## us 3-0 we ain't getting 4th. Oh well, back to reality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Thet also beat the spuds by the same score and have held City twice something we haven't done in a while.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by dazthegooner
Palace are in great form, I’m disappointed we got humped last night but it doesn’t definitively tell us we won’t get 4th. We need to dust ourselves off and win the next couple. If Spurs slip - and they will at some point - then things will feel different
The difference is the manager they have and the one we do. Reverse those positions and Palace would be facing relegation.Quote:
Originally Posted by dazthegooner
please is there any chance we could rename this thread 'By when will Arteta be sacked?'
that bad grammar is killing me...
Last night's game highlighted all the limitations of Arteta and this team.
We only set up one way, no matter the opponent.
The attack is cut and paste too, play out to the wings (mostly right wing, Saka) and cross into the box to the target man that doesn't exist.
ESR with his pass to the keeper when in a goal scoring opportunity showed our lack of shooting.
Lacazette is one of the best DM's in the prem, currently playing in the striker role and failing miserably.
Then there is Granit Backpass...... plays every game for 90+ mins (unless red carded)
Our lack of squad depth and options is appalling.
Don't get me wrong, I understand the idea of pushing on for 4th with what we have and spending in the summer with CL potentially in mind, but weakening the team and not replacing in Jan was a mistake that may cost us 4th anyway.
Glad that Martinelli got on - but was then mostly ignored. A potentially top striker is now utilised as just a winger to incorporate a central striker that cant shoot or score goals.
We can still achieve 4th if the team come out firing on all cylinders every game now but it's a big ask.
Notable highlight was Arteta not making the usual identikit like for like subs and actaully trying to force a more attacking game - just a shame there is no real threat in attack.
Optimism balloon well and truly burst last night.
This time last year we were:
P29 W12 D6 L11 F40 A32 Pts42
At this stage. Now we are:
P29 W17 D3 L9 F44 A34 Pts54
I'd suggest that's a pretty clear improvement so far. We only need 7 more points to get the same points as we finished on last year, it seems pretty clear there's going to be improvement this year.
It might not be enough for top 4 but overall I'm seeing positive signs in the team. Last night was a bad day at the office, we have reacted well after other setbacks, if we do again then I don't think we'll be far away from top 4 this year.
I don't think anyone thinks we're the finished product but for all my "Arteta out" wobbles this season I think he's taking us in the right direction and has earned the right to try and continue that.
The optimism ballon may have deflated, but I think your criticism of Arteta is OTT. Like Letters says he has quite obviously made progress this season, and had we won last night the plaudits for our manager would be continuing. Yes not signing a striker in January was a gamble but W11 D1 L3 since Aubameyang's last game is hardly evidence that this has not paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club
What is also easy to ignore is the other ways that the manager has almost revolutionised our team and the general atmosphere around it. He has built a togetherness in the team and connection with the fans that could easily have been harmed by signing a mercenary striker in January. Whether we finish 4th or 8th this season, for the team's longer term health signing the right player(s) is arguably more important than signing someone to try a top 4 push that I do not believe was the objective at the start of the season.
Let's give the manager the benefit of the doubt after a rare disappointment since this young team bedded in.
There’s been progress no doubt. Arteta has changed the culture and given the foundation for the team to win games more often than not. The squad has been stripped bare for a reason and I feel like we’re in the final stage of this project now. We’ve barely signed anyone up front for years and that’s the one area left for Arteta to put his stamp on the team. He’s clearly been building from back to front.
The only issue really is that will we find some quality forwards without CL? So it might be a tough pill to swallow if we miss out now.
Carragher said the other day he thinks Arsenal are waiting for their Alisson and Van Dijk signings, players that ultimately took Liverpool to another level. I thought that was a good way to describe where we are potentially at now.
We will find quality forwards - just need to be even cannier than we were last Summer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Right :good:Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
This is a key thing and shouldn't be underestimated. Right now I like this team again. I feel they're fighting for each other, and the fans.
So sure, last night was a bad day at the office but it's easier to accept those when generally it feels like the team have spirit and will fight for results.
The important thing is we react now. My gut feeling is we'll fall short when it comes to top 4, but there's been clear improvement since last year and I wouldn't be too hard on a young squad which doesn't have enough depth. We have to push on in the summer but I agree with MO that it'll be difficult to get a striker of the of the calibre we need. Partly because they don't grow on trees, partly because it's so obvious that's what we need the prices for us will he sky high.
As others have stated we have made quite significant improvements since last season in both performance and results. Last night was a bit of a shock to be honest, not the defeat per say but the manner in which we were comprehensively outplayed and outfought. All teams have blips so if we can excuse last night as a bad day at the office then we will be right in the mix for CL until the end of the season.
Do I think we will finish top 4? Not so sure now given the mounting injuries and tough schedule. What is important more than anything is we put up a fight to finish in the top 4, we can only do what we do.
This team has shown resilience this season after a defeat so lets hope we put another little run together.
I'm not an 'Arteta out' by any means, but that does not put his flaws beyond reasonable criticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
We have made some great progress yes, but there are still problem areas which need addressing and be it naivety or a lack of experience, from Arteta as a manager.
No one mentioned signing a 'mercenary striker' though?
We had a clear long term target, but seemingly no back up option.
A top four finish has been a target for a few seasons now - it was for Emery and it was for Arteta, it's just that the goal posts have once again been shifted.
We have also had some good fortune in that our goals recently have mainly come from the midfielders or defenders, and we have put in some pretty decent defensive displays to hold out on 1-0 wins instead of 2 or goal leads.
That is results you would expect with having a decent striker in the team.
Yes, it's amazing what £200m can buy you :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The progress has been great but we are years in to 'the project' now and games like last night do highlight our inefficiencies.
And there in lies the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We cannot push on properly if we don't finish in the CL spaces, and we won't finish in the CL spaces if we don't push on and buy properly.
I don't think that follows. If a player buys into the vision of a team and wants to move to London and we pay the big bucks then I think we can attract top players.Quote:
Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club
Definitely not saying he's above criticism, but I do think that your original critique of Arteta was a little unfair. Re last night - yes we can say that the players seemed totally undercooked, but you can't lay all of that on the manager - the players need to shoulder some blame. I wonder whether the 'telepathy' that our forwards can show requires a run of games, and the rustiness after the internantional break seemed palpable. Also, I think we missed Tierney for his application as well as his defending. It can't be a coincidence that he is regarded as the front runner for the captaincy. With Partey White and Gabriel having absoute shockers in terms of being switched on too that seemed to set the tone.Quote:
Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club
The manager did try to switch up in attack tactically in the second half, and we had a hatful more chances than we did in the Villa game. But basically mistakes and lack of focus killed us.
As for failure to invest in a striker in January, firstly I am not sure that would have made a difference last nigtht anyway with the whole team having 'one of those games' - just like Chelsea did 2 days beforehand. 'Mercenary striker' was my term - and intended to describe any striker bought simply to fill a gap rather than being a planned purchase. Clearly there were no target players available which would have meant taking a punt on a stop gap - with all the potential damage that this could have caused. Breaking the bank to prise a player away from another team would have been a different type of gamble with no guarantee of a CL place either but put the progress made with Arteta's developing team in jeaopardy.
Just saying that some things we are not happy with need to be placed in context, is all.
Progress? What progress. Are we here believing the current top 3 wont get any better next year, that they will stagnate and wait for Arteta to get his shit together. Is the Arsenal project about getting Arteta to improve or Arsenal to improve?. Man United will get miles better with a competent manager. If the Spuds finish above us then they will get the pick of attacking players in the summer ahead of us unless Kane and Son drop off a cliff post 30. We delude ourselves if we think world class players are dying to play for Arteta. Dream on
This time next year we will have been in Arteta`s 4th season in charge and im sure we will still be talking about the project. Sometimes I wonder if we all believe we have an infinite amount of time to reach the pinnacle of football in our lifetimes. 26 years since " the greatest" Wenger took over and led us to the cusp of success but not its summit. 16 years since we left Highbury. For what exactly? Are we still a work in progress?. So even if we by some miracle edge our way into 4th (unlikely. I cant see us beating Spuds or United in later games). Are we seriously going to contend to win the CL with Arteta in charge, barging our way past the likes of Bayern, PSG and Madrid. Will Arteta suddenly come of age next season?. The guy cant even pilot his way past Nottingham Forest in an FA cup. Are we fans now only worried about the CL for its cash contributions. Does Kroenke even care about that?
The club has become the Arteta weaning academy, soon to lose 2 of the best prospects in football in Guendouzi and Saliba, just to salve our baby managers fragile ego. It would be nice to win the league again and maybe the CL in this lifetime, not my next.
Supporting this club is like having a slow acting poison lacing your daily cup of tea. Faint but inexorable demise.
I do agree, but only to a certain extent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Absolutely agreed, but I did say it was the teams inefficiencies as well ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
It was a collective criticism, rather than an attack on Arteta.
We have made progress in that we are a far better and more cohesive team than we were when Arteta took over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Defensively we have been more astute and we have looked sharp in plenty of games, which we have missed for a long time.
But other than that, most of what you say is quite true and quite sad to think about tbh :(
Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Do you think all the top teams improve steadily year on year? That isn't how anything works. We have clearly improved since last year.Quote:
Are we here believing the current top 3 wont get any better next year, that they will stagnate and wait for Arteta to get his shit together.
Whether we continue to will remain to be seen but Arteta has earned the right to try.
I don't think we are ready for the CL yet to be honest, but I think Arteta is taking us in the right direction and has thus earned the right to try and continue that.Quote:
Are we seriously going to contend to win the CL with Arteta in charge, barging our way past the likes of Bayern, PSG and Madrid.
Holy shit, dude. You understand that fans of most clubs don't get to see half the success we've seen? It's only 2 years since our last FA Cup. I've seen us win more trophies in my time than fans of many clubs have or will ever see.Quote:
Supporting this club is like having a slow acting poison lacing your daily cup of tea. Faint but inexorable demise.
The title has eluded us for a long time but we have no divine right to win it, and in an era where clubs are buying up titles left, right and centre it's not as easy as it used to be.
Right now I'm just looking for progress. And I'm seeing it. I don't think we will be sweeping all before us any time soon and I'm not sure Arteta is the right person to get us right to the top. But I do see progress and he's earning the right to continue that, for now.
i do think we have progressed in the last year obviously need to see how the rest of the season pans out. but i think you can see a plan in the team. a plan with the players that remain. emphasis around younger developing players. getting rid of the old guard first to allow wages space to make a few signings. 1st team needs padding couple of forwards, another Centre mid and a defender who could play full back.
but we could actually pick our best side and without european football have been able to play more or less the same team most weeks. the worry is that we miss CL football and get stuck in Europa league. more games make things harder. Newcastle will invest now they are likely to stay in the division. So there target is Europa next season.
So miss CL this year and think no chance next season.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
This is the same guy that used to cheerlead for Wenger well into his decline, till he hit his perigee. I dont take his opinions seriously
Progress is obvious. If the same teams have been on top for the last 5 seasons, interchanging places only how can you say they are not improving year on year.
We will see where we end up finally but if it isnt 4th then what is the tangible progress
If you are a rocket company say "SpaceArse" and you start off by having your rocket blow up on the launchpad, then a year later it blows up 5 miles in the sky. Is that progress?.
Meanwhile another company 200 miles away "SpaceCity" is launching vehicles which go round the Earth and land safely
Lets not delude ourselves. We are only in the Space race literally for the government grants...or shall we say in this case the suckers wallet grants.
I posted a league table comparison from last season and this. That isn't an opinion :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
See the league table comparison. And just generally, look at the way we've been playing. If you don't value my opinion because I didn't buy in to the "Wenger is a bumbling idiot" nonsense, then you can look at lots of other posters on here who are seeing the same things I'm seeing. OK, Monday night was a car crash. But generally our performances have been good recently. It feels like a team more willing to fight for each other and for the fans. The team seems to be playing with more purpose. And they've reacted well to setbacks. We could yet collapse, you can only really judge progress at the end of the season, but right now things are looking better. Our reaction to Monday's mess will be another test.Quote:
Progress is obvious.
Last season we finished 8th on 61 points. Top 4 isn't the only metric of progress. Last year we weren't even in the conversation for top 4Quote:
We will see where we end up finally but if it isnt 4th then what is the tangible progress
Yes, that's progress. It's closer to what SpaceCity can do than you were. It tells you that you're still not where you need to be. But the important thing is you continue to progress with the aim of emulating what SpaceCity can do. At the same time one should be realistic. If SpaceCity have an Elon Musk backing them who can pump more money in to R&D than we ever can then that does rather affect our ability to do all the things they can do. We do have enough resources that we should be aiming to compete with them, but from the last couple of seasons we were never going to bridge that gap in one season. I'm not entirely convinced that Arteta is the right man to get us there, but for me he's earning the right to try.Quote:
If you are a rocket company say "SpaceArse" and you start off by having your rocket blow up on the launchpad, then a year later it blows up 5 miles in the sky. Is that progress?.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
As for Globalgunner's post - a dollop of reality is required here. This is that since Wenger's last years we have been a club in total drift. We failed to make CL - AW's benchmark - in his last 2 seasons, and have failed to do so since. More importantly we lost both our identity and our direction; underwent a shit show in terms of club leadership and saw the fracturing of a fan base that is an essential component of the togetherness that sustained success needs to be built on. Add to this the far more level playing field that TV money has brougth to the EPL and other clubs being bought by investors with deeper pockets than before and you have a near perfect storm for a club like ours. For an almost direct comparison for what happens to a club that loses its longest serving and most successful manager - and the fact that throwing money at a problem is not an automatic solution - just look at Manure since SAF. For an example of how a longer term approach that focusses on identity and canny investment in players who buy into a programme look at Liverpool (I am ignoring Citeh and Chelsea here as theirs is a model that is simply not available to us).
Its no surprise that Arteta has made mistakes and shown inexperience - this is his first managerial job - but Klopp took 3 years to win his first silverware (Arteta won his first major silverware in his first full season with us) and our manager is starting way behind where Klopp did in terms both of experience and players. What we fans have been sceptical about is what the manager's plan is, and signs of serious change in playing style; identity and 'DNA'. Arteta has delivered this this season no matter whether we now finish top 4 or top 7. As Letters says, the points total so far speaks for itself. The plan is clear for the first time in years.
The question of whether Arteta can win us the league or the CL is totally premature at this stage. We needed to get the basic building blocks in place and the fans behind the team before even thinking about sustained progress to that point.
Monday was a setback for sure, and a thin squad/injuries may yet leave us disappointed this season but to argue that there has been no progress is way far of the mark.
When your reality is being 2nd class, accepting it and even justifying it well...thats the nub of the problem right there