When will Arteta be sacked by

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

Lol, if not for your Saka issues, would say we like the same players .....but yeah agree pretty much with what you said.

Just beats my imagination why Arteta can't see the boy is better off on the bench for now.. IMO Trossard is an easy key in for now and shouldn't really be dropped the way he is playing. Contribution wise the way I rate our attackers for now are:

Martinelli
Trossard
Jesus
Saka
Odegaard
Nelson
Xhaka
Vieira

at a point I even considered that if he still wanted Saka on the pitch, couldn't he had taken off Odegaard and put Trosaard their? Just do something radical to get our tempo up (that was at 2-1, not when chicken had come home to roost)

We had options yesterday it was just a total lack of imagination from Arteta and that's because he's fixated on a starting 11 when he's got a pretty good attacking squad now.

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I'd love to see a mid/att of

Partey
Odegaard Viera

Trossard Jesus Martinelli

Not just for 1 game either.

Not that I've been impressed with anything Viera has done but he needs a run of starts with the first team to even make a fair assessment, for me.

Also, is Jorginho just a back up for Partey? No option of Jorginho replacing Xhaka? Might be a bit of step backwards in terms of offensive play, as Xhaka gets ahead of the ball sometimes nowadays and I'm not sure Jorginho can do that.

We just need to switch summin up but Arteta is a hostage to his own rigidity.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

deep down wouldn’t you rather have unpleasant ad hominem exchanges as opposed to the sedateness that is this forum 90% of the time.

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I don't think those are the only two options :lol:

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't think those are the only two options :lol:

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Come off it man, on a day like today with work dragging there’s nothing like getting out the proverbial popcorn and watching two complete strangers make the most visceral personal remarks at each other. No harm is done because they don’t know each other to take it personally to begin with.

Is it conducive to good football debate? Absolutely not

But I think we were well past that point. If I think people are being silly I will just goad them more. And I’m not saying that as someone who has never come out with silly things on here, it’s prerogative of a football fan…I consider it the last acceptable bastion of true irrational sectarianism

I don’t know whether that guy was truly offended by me or not (much less care) part of me hopes he will start to hold a personal grudge against me…that always makes things interesting.

The point being that disagreements that get twisted out of any reasonable proportion is the lifeblood of this site. Mac76 was I fear becoming quite angrily obsessed with my player ratings at one point (though doubt he’s thinking that now)

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Originally Posted by IBK

A curious post. I wasn't making excuses for anything. I believe we bottled it, and I criticised the brittleness of the team in the past 2 matches. Hardly lionising another team or being fanboyish.

This is the problem with debate these days. Offer an alternative view and people respond with binary overstatements. I get that you don't rate our manager, but that doesn't mean either that your view is gospel or even supported by the evidence. It certainly doesnt mean that I am a blinkered Arteta fanboy. As HCZ pinted out, the narture of being football fans means that there is never a time when people don't think that something should have been done differently. It isn't unreasonable to take the view that differnt, or earlier subs would have changed the game yesterday, but it's equally valid to look at a team-wide lack of composure meant that we lost our game under pressure - which is what I think we did and believe that we will continue to do for the rest of the season.

You say that saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a cop out, but Trossard and Jorginho were brought on on 67 mins yesterday and but for a brief period when we settled it didn't really stop the rot. Also, its a bit strange to argue that the problem was a lack of subs but totally ignore the fact that 3 of our best players were unavailable to the manager through injury. This is confirmation bias supporting your anti Arteta stance.

The fact that Arteta has been rightly praised for our good performances that still see us 4 points above Citeh does not mean that he is without his flaws (and by your own argument you cannot fixate on any sub-par performances by our traditional rivals to explain why we have topped the league for so long this season). But the same league position demonstrates that wanting to ditch our manager is objectively rather absurd - and suggesting that it's somehow defeatist to take this view doesn't make amuch sense. Your praise of Emery who despite his experience could not secure a Europa Cup or a top 4 finish for Arsenal speaks for itself, I'm afraid.

If we were going backwards under Arteta then your arguments would hold more merit, but we are not, and I cannot see on any analysis why we would want to do so now, or what 'magical' alternative would guarantee us success. This doesn't mean that I am content with our past 2 perfomances - I am gutted by them - but not wanting to ditch the whole project does not make me immature or less of an Arsenal fan.

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Maybe we need to put a reply to all button, because though I was replying to your post, there were several people who shared similar sentiments that I was addressing in my reply ( which I don't think was personal anyway).

Why I picked you in particular to respond to was that in your initial reply you stated clearly that my post suggesting that we had cooled talks for an extension to Mikel's contract was "astonishing" and "crazy", seeing that he is doing a great job. Obviously, as shown in this post you have firmly deduced I want the manger out...but we'll come to this later.

In your initial reply, though you agreed the team bottled it you seemed to absolve the manager of blame, saying subs were 'inconsequential" and saying things like "Arteta was not responsible for Partey having a bad day in the office" suggested to me that you are shifting the "blame" to the players and not their leader the manager, who had set them up properly and given them all they needed to win as evidenced by the 2 nil leads in both matches.

This was obviously my disagreement as both you and me have been here long enough to remember arguments in the AW days of how the "players" were letting AW down", "AW is a proven winner and its the players who don't have the winning mentality" bla bla bla. The point is trying to excise the players performance from that of the manager is a totally unhelpful exercise that has cost us 19 years in the wilderness. That is my opinion and most things I will say are my opinion unless I explicitly say so.

The breathtaking football that got us 2-0 nil ahead in 10 mins was down to Arteta and the team, the shameful retreat that got us back to 2-2 was also down to Arteta and the team.. not sure my reply said anything else.

Now back to me saying we ditch Arteta, kindly point out where I said so IBK? The post you referred to does not indicate we are ditching him (unless you did not read the post nor the story), it says we are not rewarding him with a contract extension till we see how the season goes. Please what is wrong with that? If you remember correctly, AWs last contract extension was signed by these same owners after an FA cup win with a majority of the fans still against it but they said

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“Our ambition is to win the Premier League and other major trophies in Europe. It’s what the fans, players, staff, manager and board expect and we won’t rest until that is achieved. Arsène is the best person to help us make that happen. He has a fantastic track record and has our full backing.”

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Look how that went.

So I ask again, how were the sentiments I expressed "astonishing" or "crazy" and where do I try and fanshame you in the rest of my post?

BTW, I do not blame you because theirs a self hating coward lurking in the shadows trying to brew something up to make himself some sort of internet hero.

Those who have followed our debates and his petty vendettas know the same hypocrite was the one who demanded Arteta be sacked earlier this year and unfortunately I responded to him asking him to calm down, then he went all ballistic. A poor weak minded creature pretending to be some sort of He-Man.

Anyway:

I still believe we can win the title.

I still believe we should win the title.

But Arteta needs to get his act together and work on his weaknesses and the teams.

Coming 2nd ( or 3rd ) and wining 1 trophy with only 1 final in 4 years is not enough progress for me.

I will say it a thousand times even if all fans don't feel the same way.

Simple.

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

Excuses, excuses, excuses.... throwing 2-0 leads twice in a row in 7 days to sides struggling (and fatigued) isn't the Managers fault or down to his decisions, but when we were beating teams black and blue it was all about his greatness and how he sets up his team.

Come on give me a break.

For ages their has been a consensus on here that if theirs a weak or naive part of the Rookies game, its the way he uses his bench and subs; we are either complaining that he is running players into the ground (Saka), or ignoring his favourites messing up and being ineffectual (Xhaka, Zin etc.)...saying nothing would have changed if we'd made subs at the right time is a bloody cop out! Pep and Klopp have always shocked us with subs before the half hour limit once they see something isn't quite right...our more experienced former manager who is doing a great job at Villa use to do the same thing too... always believing a team of inexperienced kids will "figure it out" is a bit fanboyish and immature if you ask me. But if I am being honest, I can see how it could build character, the same way I can see how dropping points and repeatedly falling over hurdles kills any character that was suppose to have been built!!

I really don't get why we as fans would prefer not to analyse our team and coach but instead stay firmly fixated on another teams record, lionising every effing thing about them ...its just too pathetic.

It wasn't Citeh who knocked us out of The Europa league, they didn't knock us out of the League cup...they are not responsible for the fact that he has only reached one final in 4 years .....and TBH, even if they end up beating us this month, that loss will not be the loss that meant we could not win the title this year ( we dropped 4 points in 7 days while being 2 nil up, who effing does that while chasing a title!!)...lets actually look at what we can control and scream about our weaknesses until they are adequately addressed....thats if some of us want to move forward or want to keep on bitching for another 20 years.

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:gp: (I think)

the last line confuses me but i think you're saying there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism or pointing out the manager isn't perfect, yes?

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Originally Posted by mandela8

Yesterday also proved Tierney is done at arsenal.
It's not his fault and it's nothing even to do with him.
It's not a player debate, it's a style debate. The left back inverts. That's simply the way we play now. Tierney's strengths are up and down the line, not central. He has no place in this team. Real shame and whoever buys him, for a cut price no doubt, will have one of Europes best left backs for the next 7/8 years and probably their captain to boot.

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This

it will make me physically sick when we sell him in the summer., as i said somewhere above, by selling Tierney Arteta will be locking us into the one way of playing, which is a REALLY bad move in itself even if we weren't losing such a good player

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

Maybe we need to put a reply to all button, because though I was replying to your post, there were several people who shared similar sentiments that I was addressing in my reply ( which I don't think was personal anyway).

Why I picked you in particular to respond to was that in your initial reply you stated clearly that my post suggesting that we had cooled talks for an extension to Mikel's contract was "astonishing" and "crazy", seeing that he is doing a great job. Obviously, as shown in this post you have firmly deduced I want the manger out...but we'll come to this later.

In your initial reply, though you agreed the team bottled it you seemed to absolve the manager of blame, saying subs were 'inconsequential" and saying things like "Arteta was not responsible for Partey having a bad day in the office" suggested to me that you are shifting the "blame" to the players and not their leader the manager, who had set them up properly and given them all they needed to win as evidenced by the 2 nil leads in both matches.

This was obviously my disagreement as both you and me have been here long enough to remember arguements in the AW days of how the "players" were letting AW down", "AW is a proven winner and its the players who don't have the winning mentality" and bla bla bla. The point is trying to excise the players performance from that of the manager is a totally unhelpful exercise that has cost us 19 years in the wilderness. That is my opinion and most things I will say are my opinion unless I explicitly say so.

The breathtaking football that got us 2-0 nil ahead in 10 mins was down to Arteta and the team, the shameful retreat that got us back to 2-2 was also down to Arteta and the team.. not sure my reply said anything else.

Now back to me saying we ditch Arteta, kindly point out where I said so IBK? The post you referred to does not indicate we are ditching him (unless you did not read the post nor the story), it says we are not rewarding him with a contract extension till we see how the season goes. Please what is wrong with that? If you remember correctly, AWs last contract extension was signed by these same owners after an FA cup win with a majority of the fans still against it but they said


So I ask again, how were the sentiments I expressed "astonishing" or "crazy" and where do I try and fanshame you in the rest of my post?

BTW, I do not blame you because theirs a self hating coward lurking in the shadows trying to brew something up to make himself some sort of internet hero.

Those who have followed our debates and his petty vendettas know the same hypocrite was the one who demanded Arteta be sacked earlier this year and unfortunately I responded to him asking him to calm down, then he went all ballistic. A poor weak minded creature pretending to be some sort of He-Man.

Anyway:

I still believe we can win the title.

I still believe we should win the title.

But Arteta needs to get his act together and work on his weaknesses and the teams.

Coming 2nd or 3rd or and wining 1 trophy with only 1 final in 4 years is not enough progress for me.

I will say it a thousand times even if all fans don't feel the same way.

Simple.

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At the risk of actually responding to your point (because staring at a laptop screen has proved to be too much to be bothered with)

My opinion is that the title is done with, i factored it that we could drop points in three fixtures and win the thing and West Ham was not one of them. I hope I’m wrong, it could be like 89 all over again where we lost to Derby and drew with Wimbledon before going to Anfield but I just think dropping a two goal lead twice in a row suggests that we are choking

Your Argument being that it’s not enough that Arteta has won only the single fa cup in four years is not the contentious part of your argument, it’s when you state that people lack ambition when they don’t see things completely the way you do. We clearly kept Wenger too long and we don’t want to make the same mistake with Arteta, even if by some miracle we finish 2nd in the next three seasons…it’s not unreasonable to suggest that maybe we need someone who can take us that extra step.

It’s similarly not irrational to believe that Arteta is not capable of pushing us on, but I think my opinion is that he’s proved me wrong enough (despite what we agree are clearly still black marks against him) that he probably deserves a little more time given there is no one out there on the horizon who clearly suggests to me that they would definitely improve upon Arteta.

And yes I’ll take you at your word, and I certainly haven’t seen anything you’ve posted which suggests we should dump Arteta…you’ve been more preoccupied with his use of substitutions. And whilst I think that by itself might be too simplistic an explanation (I can’t remember if it was here or somewhere else, where I suggested that Arteta shouting at Partey to calm down and keep his chin up seemed to have the opposite effect) it certainly does warrant scrutiny.

Whilst I was just being a horrendous WUM, I also do take exception to this idea that people aren’t as ambitious as fans as you…the idea that any fan isn’t interested in seeing us win titles is nonsense. Most of us (in fact I assume all of us) were old enough to be drinking in pubs the last time we won the title…it’s an experience all of us would give anything to repeat. But we are going to differ as to the best way for that to be achieved

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Originally Posted by Mac76

:gp: (I think)

the last line confuses me but i think you're saying there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism or pointing out the manager isn't perfect, yes?

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It’s a bit of a straw man though because no one has said he’s above criticism

I can’t stand the dude, yet I kind of feel like it’s being made out that I’m a “trust the process” half wit

Though I agree with both of you that Tierney's game doesn't suit Areta's system...is it a unfathomable that we have a plan B, could we really not work more on having an effective plan B instead of beating down plan A to death??

I was really hoping that the Rookie would see this and consider it, but he probably needs to get to and lose a few more finals before that breakthrough dawns on him.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

This

it will make me physically sick when we sell him in the summer., as i said somewhere above, by selling Tierney Arteta will be locking us into the one way of playing, which is a REALLY bad move in itself even if we weren't losing such a good player

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I don’t really give a fuck about Tierney one way or the other, hasn’t come close to his best for us for years

I just don’t like Zinchenko…I think this whole inverted left back thing is nonsense and we wouldn’t even need it if we had someone alongside Partey who would stop dawdling all over the pitch

If we had a proper left back to replace him, wouldn’t give a shit if we sold him or not