The next manager..

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Originally Posted by IBK

Good points NQ.

Re my apparent contradiction, I would emphasise that I'm not suggesting for a moment we should not have title winning aspirations, and I am as frustrated as anyone that the winners' mentality has been leached out of our DNA over the past decade and a half :yikes: - albeit that it could be argued there were logical reasons for this (stadium project that in hindsight did not get us where we wanted to be; the oligarchs; the tsunami of TV money).

But I feel strongly that we need to be pragmatic and realistic about how we are going to achieve what we fans crave. And I think that starts with recognising where we are. That is not defeatist. It is common sense. We need to stop the rot immediately in my view. There is no oven ready world beating manager in the market mid season, and as you rightly point out, even a Klopp or a Guardiola would struggle to fight the number of fires that need putting out at our club as things now stand.

I don't think it is far-fetched that a manager with a past connection with the Club, and who has been part of the most successful EPL team of recent times would both restore the connection with the fans that is so badly needed, and bring a winning philosophy to our team. From what I hear, Arteta is a pretty uncompromising character who would take underperforming players in hand. There is nothing to suggest that he would be the coward that we have seen Emery to be.

As I said, the next task for the manager would be to restore some feel good energy to an underperforming team. The fact that this has so palpably disappeared under Emery is in my view down to him, not a club hierarchy who did their bit over the Summer to make some exciting player signings.

Should a manager be appointed with the aim of securing top 4? No. The aim should be to win, of course, and the appointment of a so-called Europa League specialist was in hindsight too low an aspiration. What was not wrong in principle, however, was to aim to build steadily rather than expect instant success - which is, as you have said, something that was beyond even Guardiola and Klopp when they came. Given where we are now there are worse ideas, in my view, in seeing whether we can go the Lampard route rather than appoint a more illustrious manage who is probably not available anyway.

As for the fans. I agree with you. I am not impressed by some of our fans' behaviour, and I would dearly like to see an approach by Gooners that has the best interests of the club at heart rather than knee jerking along with everyone else. What I cannot blame the fans for however is our recognition that the manager's current sitiation is untenable, and that the job is beyond him.

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Good to speak with you again IBK.

I don't disagree with you regarding Emery. Filling the gap left by Wenger, even when multiple people were assigned to fill it, was always going to be a struggle. Emery's soft and cautious approach isn't what we needed, in fact the reverse of what was required. But they must have had something in mind when they hired him. There must have been some sort of plan.

I didn't particularly want Arteta either, but I'd settled on him when it looked like he was getting the job - for a lot of the reasons you point out. Definitely it would have been a new approach with prospects for disaster or success in equal measure. It was the different approach, the unknown, the total contrast with two decades of Wenger that sold me. Whatever Arteta delivered would at least be very different in terms of his relationship with the players, the expectations placed upon him and the inevitable desire to prove himself. And, if I'm honest, Arteta was kind of disposable. It would have been no great surprise if nothing much was delivered on the pitch. And no big deal if after a season he got a tap on the shoulder and a helping hand out the door.

The trouble with bringing Arteta in now (if he'd even come here because I heard he was pretty pissed at how it all went down), we're a year and a half past the window where it made sense. Our big players are on the verge of walking away again. Expensive contracts need to be settled. The relief of seeing Wenger go could have countered the oddity of a rookie manager walking through the door back then. I think people would have accepted it was maybe an interim thing. But sign him up now, after the Emery stint, and I wonder how the players react. I mean in their entitled and selfish modern football mindsets. I think we see them walking and we're zero steps forward and three steps back. With a rookie manager.

I think they'll have to replace Emery with a big, established name, to send a message that we mean business (even if we don't really). Get those mercs to sign on the dotted line because we're going to need to add to them, not set about the boring routine of replacing them. An £80mill commanding defender for the centre is what we need next. Then a £90mill midfield general. This is what I mean when I ask if the owners are committed to success. Then, if you consider Leno to be adequate (which I don't) we finally, finally have the spine of a team and a half decent supporting cast.

Can we get there by doing another round of manager swaps? Maybe. But maybe it'd be just as well to stick with the choice we made and ride it out to the end result. That's what Liverpool did with Klopp. Get all the pieces in place and see where we are. I'm not even joking when I say were were probably destined for a relegation fight if Wenger had remained. You can see his legacy on the pitch every week as we huff and puff against very average opponents. So if we just say Emery is doing even worse, well we don't really know that's the case. The results are damning. The performances equally so. But maybe that's what you have to endure when a suicidal plunge off a cliff has to be somehow reversed. I have a gut feeling Emery can't stay in this hole forever. He's not the guy I would have picked, but he's not Wenger either.

If I was running things I'd be backing the manager and talking about contracts, big budgets in the January window - not about replacing the manager at the halfway stage, blowing the remainder of the season while the new guy settles in, and then starting the "he needs at least another year" routine all over again.

And the fans could play their part by getting together and apologising to Xhaka. Yes, I mean it. The guy never went out on the pitch with the intent of fucking the club up. But the fans were on his back non-stop. Just his back though. Like a pack with a scent. Now they're onto Emery. Who will it be after that? If that's the route we're going down in terms of giving support then we're domed anyway. We need the opposite. We don't need the team going out there afraid to make a mistake in case they become the next target.

My gut says we all pull together on this, rather than hitting reset. I don't think reset does anything more than add another couple of years to the process of stabilising and then advancing. Fans need to ride it out. Show some backbone. Accept that all this was absolutely inevitable given the scope of the damage inflicted by the last guy.

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Originally Posted by IBK

What a good post. I want Emery gone more than anyone, but I think we need to be realistic and lateral thinking about who replaces him if the club does what I want and takes decisive action now.

We are a club in a lot of turmoil ATM. The current set up has lost the fans, and IMHO this is in the main down to the personality and approach of a manager who clearly has limited man management/motivational skills and whose negativity, stubbornness and cowardice have transferred themselves to his players. There is no joy, fight or self-belief in a team constantly set up in fear of even the lowliest opposition. And this has alienated a fan base that up until our craven capitulation at the end of last season were broadly supportive of Emery.

We are not going to find a proven world-beater mid season to manage our team, and we need to understand that there is no instant fix to where we find ourselves. I think we need modest aspirations at this stage. Firstly, to find clarity and identity in the way we play. We need to an extent to go back to basics in a more settled set up where the players understand what they are doing. Second we need a manager who can understand and connect with the fans - and appreciate the traditions and pride of our club. Third (and I think this is more controversial) we need to focus on performances more than top-four finishes or where are so-called competitors are, and I think that a more 'modest' appointment - if the other bases are covered - could counteract the obvious and choking pressure that is inhibiting us at present. For an example - look at most of our Europa League/cup performances this season. Until lately there was a freshness and exuberance in our play that contrasted with our league form.

I think Arteta could tick all of these boxes, and be our Lampard. He would bring goodwill that is sorely needed, and from what I hear he could give us some freshness and self-belief. Yes he would be a risk, but again, I don't see anyone available at present who would be otherwise, and maybe a less 'illustrious' appointment would give us a bit of time and space to steady the ship.

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Oh, I'm sure there's probably elite coaches out there to be had, even mid-season - I just don't think we can afford them, nor are we going to be attractive to them in any way right now. They'll be coming in on an instant points-handicap in the race for the CL spots, and it sounds like we've already blown next years budget - we may even end up having to sell off some of our highest earners and best players to reduce costs, so anyone with any kind of established reputation to protect is going to be on a hiding to nothing if they come here in our current state.

At this point, I'm not sure the club has much choice but to gamble on innovation. Doesn't necessarily have to be Arteta (although, like yourself, I think he ticks a lot of boxes), but I do think we need to be looking for someone who is either up and coming, hungry and eager to prove themselves, or who has a proven record of doing a lot with a little. We may not be able to offer much in the way of spending power until we're back in the CL, but we do have a squad of potentially excellent young players who are absolutely crying out for someone to lead them - a brave, charismatic coach with a strong vision could easily make this group their own, and that challenge should still appeal to someone.

Totally agree about the focus - rather than obsessing over the goals and targets that we want to hit, we should be going a step deeper and working out which habits / behaviours / skills we need to implement in order for those goals to become achievable. For example, there's not much point in pushing the team to play out from the back when they're quite clearly not yet comfortable with taking the ball under pressure (and possibly don't even know how to shape themselves to receive a pass properly)!

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

There's already talk Auba and Laca will not sign a new deal with Emery around, on top of the various stories we've heard about the squad being disillusioned with his "tactics".

He can't be given the season to turn it around, that would be suicide because the players are not responding to anything he's setting out for them and they haven't done so for a very long time. I think it's reasonably clear we're probably going to finish mid table unless the club act now. So make the call and get rid him, put this sorry chapter behind us and lets start looking forward again.

We have a good squad with some very good players. They just need some direction and most importantly on a human level to feel a connection with whoever is guiding them. Of which Emery provides nothing because he is a charisma vacuum.

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Once you've been told that you can't afford any more slip-ups, or you've got X number of games to save your job, then you're basically gone already. After all, what are the chances of anyone going the rest of the season with no more slip-ups? Starting immediately?

As you say, just make the call and get it done - this indefinite state of purgatory isn't doing anyone any favours, Emery included.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Arteta to my mind would be a terrible choice. No logic in that one at all. His history with us has been rose tinted. What I heard behind the scenes was that he was a sour character that none of his teammates liked. He was imposed by Wenger, because Wenger does what Wenger usually does. Follows his own ego.
If Everton are not considering Arteta why the fk are we?. We made one bad choice following years of Wenger stagnation. This time around we should be even more circumspect. Bring in in a manager who we can all rally around. Not someone who instantly divides an already disgruntled fanbase.

Id like Emery gone immediately. But am prepared to wait till next season to get the right man. Even Emeryshite cannot relegate us (I think). We may finish 15th in the table with the way things are going. Lets take our time and spend the next 6 months searching or waiting for a proven winner. Id like it to be NES, but really there are many achievable candidates superior to Arteta

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Well, Mertesacker at least sounds like he's keen to work with him again (so there's one bit of logic straightaway: strong lines of communication and maybe some joined-up thinking between the academy and the first team), and everyone at City talks about him in glowing terms. That doesn't make what you say about him being sour untrue, but given his positive reputation elsewhere, i'd be inclined to think that it was maybe less about being sour for no reason and more about being pissed off with underperformance. Maybe the other players didn't like it simply because it shone a light on their apathy and rocked the boat of the overly comfortable, overly casual atmosphere that had taken root at the club? I can imagine there were a hell of a lot of sour characters stalking about the place whenever GG's or Wenger's early sides dropped points

Anyway, like I said, it doesn't necessarily have to be Arteta - I just want to see us make an appointment based on ideas and innovation. NES is also an interesting shout - someone who's doing a lot with less at a smaller club. I think my biggest fear with the big-name coaches is that they all seem too obvious, and I don't trust Raul and co to do any kind of background checks or due diligence on them before making the hire. Like they did with Emery. At least with a more leftfield appointment they'd be obliged to put their necks on the block, and that would give me a little more confidence that they'd done some kind of homework first.

https://i.imgur.com/kx96ZcF.png

:lol:

Looks legit.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Good to speak with you again IBK.

I don't disagree with you regarding Emery. Filling the gap left by Wenger, even when multiple people were assigned to fill it, was always going to be a struggle. Emery's soft and cautious approach isn't what we needed, in fact the reverse of what was required. But they must have had something in mind when they hired him. There must have been some sort of plan.

I didn't particularly want Arteta either, but I'd settled on him when it looked like he was getting the job - for a lot of the reasons you point out. Definitely it would have been a new approach with prospects for disaster or success in equal measure. It was the different approach, the unknown, the total contrast with two decades of Wenger that sold me. Whatever Arteta delivered would at least be very different in terms of his relationship with the players, the expectations placed upon him and the inevitable desire to prove himself. And, if I'm honest, Arteta was kind of disposable. It would have been no great surprise if nothing much was delivered on the pitch. And no big deal if after a season he got a tap on the shoulder and a helping hand out the door.

The trouble with bringing Arteta in now (if he'd even come here because I heard he was pretty pissed at how it all went down), we're a year and a half past the window where it made sense. Our big players are on the verge of walking away again. Expensive contracts need to be settled. The relief of seeing Wenger go could have countered the oddity of a rookie manager walking through the door back then. I think people would have accepted it was maybe an interim thing. But sign him up now, after the Emery stint, and I wonder how the players react. I mean in their entitled and selfish modern football mindsets. I think we see them walking and we're zero steps forward and three steps back. With a rookie manager.

I think they'll have to replace Emery with a big, established name, to send a message that we mean business (even if we don't really). Get those mercs to sign on the dotted line because we're going to need to add to them, not set about the boring routine of replacing them. An £80mill commanding defender for the centre is what we need next. Then a £90mill midfield general. This is what I mean when I ask if the owners are committed to success. Then, if you consider Leno to be adequate (which I don't) we finally, finally have the spine of a team and a half decent supporting cast.

Can we get there by doing another round of manager swaps? Maybe. But maybe it'd be just as well to stick with the choice we made and ride it out to the end result. That's what Liverpool did with Klopp. Get all the pieces in place and see where we are. I'm not even joking when I say were were probably destined for a relegation fight if Wenger had remained. You can see his legacy on the pitch every week as we huff and puff against very average opponents. So if we just say Emery is doing even worse, well we don't really know that's the case. The results are damning. The performances equally so. But maybe that's what you have to endure when a suicidal plunge off a cliff has to be somehow reversed. I have a gut feeling Emery can't stay in this hole forever. He's not the guy I would have picked, but he's not Wenger either.

If I was running things I'd be backing the manager and talking about contracts, big budgets in the January window - not about replacing the manager at the halfway stage, blowing the remainder of the season while the new guy settles in, and then starting the "he needs at least another year" routine all over again.

And the fans could play their part by getting together and apologising to Xhaka. Yes, I mean it. The guy never went out on the pitch with the intent of fucking the club up. But the fans were on his back non-stop. Just his back though. Like a pack with a scent. Now they're onto Emery. Who will it be after that? If that's the route we're going down in terms of giving support then we're domed anyway. We need the opposite. We don't need the team going out there afraid to make a mistake in case they become the next target.

My gut says we all pull together on this, rather than hitting reset. I don't think reset does anything more than add another couple of years to the process of stabilising and then advancing. Fans need to ride it out. Show some backbone. Accept that all this was absolutely inevitable given the scope of the damage inflicted by the last guy.

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Likewise mate!

I agree 100% with you that Emery's appointment made some sense at the time. Unlike others, I don't blame the board for not 'aiming higher'. It was always going to be difficult culturally and structure wise to replace a 22 year manager and I thought it made sense to have an interim manager to try to consolidate with an eye as much on future appointments as last season's finishing position. I thought a top four finish was achieveable under Emery, and he is a Europa League specialist. And let's face it - we almost got there - albeit that I am still trying to work out how we blew up so spectacularly at the end of last season - was it Emery being 'found out' once other teams worked his tactics out; was it that he lucked out with Ramsey and then suffered when that player got injured, or was it that the manager simply cannot function under pressure and retreats into his shell - becoming obsessed with the strenghths of the opposition rather than having the courage to play his own game?

Whatever the reason - I think that instinctively most perople reaslised at the end of last season that Emery wasn't going to work. The board backed him in the Summer - and even though the players signed might have been decided at board rather than manager level I can understand this - having seen how the Emery decided January signing of David Luiz worked out. Yet Emery has confirmed what we were all seeing - even with a strong squad on paper he is kryptonite and it is self-evidently going to get worse rather than better now, IMO. I think that backing this manager in the January transfer window would be suicide.

This maybe controversial, but I don't even blame the club hierarchy for not sacking Emery up until now. We have never been a 'hire and fire' club, and we are only in November. To a degree any club's board has a responsibility to look beyond a hysterical press and reactionary fans who crave success, and be a bit more measured and patient in taking strategic decisions. I know that this statement seems contracdictory to my support for an Arteta to replace Emery now, but IMHO the evidence is now so compelling that the priority now is to get the manager out of the club before he causes any more damage. As I posted above, I think that keeping Emery to the end of the season will make the current situation look relatively benign.

So its against that background that I have sympathy for what may well be another 'risky' or 'underwhelming' appointment now. I agree that Arteta may well not be a long term or particularly successful appointment, but I feel that in many ways he may be a pragmatic one. Im not sure I agree with you that his appoitnment would alienate our top players. I think that Arteta would be more likely to work with them and seek their input this might be a good thing. I honestly feel that we have the talent to perform well even if a rookie manager simply does the basics and does not over complicate things - much as Lampard is doing at Chelsea. Most of all, I don't think we have a great deal to lose now - and we may need to accept making another appointment that may be 'interim' - even if this serves simply to illustrate precisely what is needed after that when we can see the results of a different managerial approach.

I believe that the club's plan was to work towards a bigger name appointment after 2 years of Emery - hopefully with CL football to offer. This plan is now out of the window, and I dont think it is as easy as some think simply to fast forward this process and make the intended appointment now. In these circumstances, I don't think that someone like Arteta would alienate the fans like Emery has. They may be underwhelmed, but I honestly think that what we need now is not the pressure that a big name manager would be under immediately because of the expectations that would exist, but a step by step approach to dealing with a situation that has gone spectacularly wrong. There is no guarantee that a big name would turn things around - look at Pellegrini at West Ham, or Van Gaal or Mourinho's stints at Manure. I may be naive, and I am no expert on the current availablity of proven winning managers, but any appointment at the present time carries risk, and I'm not sure that Arteta would be significantly more risky than anyone else when all factors are taken into account.

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

Well, Mertesacker at least sounds like he's keen to work with him again (so there's one bit of logic straightaway: strong lines of communication and maybe some joined-up thinking between the academy and the first team), and everyone at City talks about him in glowing terms. That doesn't make what you say about him being sour untrue, but given his positive reputation elsewhere, i'd be inclined to think that it was maybe less about being sour for no reason and more about being pissed off with underperformance. Maybe the other players didn't like it simply because it shone a light on their apathy and rocked the boat of the overly comfortable, overly casual atmosphere that had taken root at the club? I can imagine there were a hell of a lot of sour characters stalking about the place whenever GG's or Wenger's early sides dropped points

Anyway, like I said, it doesn't necessarily have to be Arteta - I just want to see us make an appointment based on ideas and innovation. NES is also an interesting shout - someone who's doing a lot with less at a smaller club. I think my biggest fear with the big-name coaches is that they all seem too obvious, and I don't trust Raul and co to do any kind of background checks or due diligence on them before making the hire. Like they did with Emery. At least with a more leftfield appointment they'd be obliged to put their necks on the block, and that would give me a little more confidence that they'd done some kind of homework first.

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I agree with all 3 of your posts. I too am not wedded to Arteta - far from it - but I don't see the board going for a 'big name' now if Emery is replaced, and as I've explained i don't think that a big name manager is any kind of panacea. I would like to see what a fresher, more innovative and fresher coach could do with this team. If it doesn't work out then so be it and we move on...

The difference between Arsenal and other big clubs is that at Arsenal there seems to be a general attitude that appointing a top proven manager is a bad idea and that we should instead focus on some untried rookie, because we see ourselves as some sort of superior club that must nurture young players and feel that a top manager would cost too much and not want to come.

The thing is, a top manager will come if he senses ambition when you speak to him, if you show him the club are serious about challenging and are willing to push the boat out, then you can easily convince them.

The trouble is the board and owner aren't ambitious, moreover many of the fans convince themselves that appointing a top proven manager won't work, I dont see why not, they succeed for a reason because they know how to, that lot down the road have appointed a winner and after a terrible run have won their first game away and won again last night.

It only seem to be at Arsenal where small time managers (or people who have never managed) are popular, maybe that's why we ended up with a guy like Emery, small time mentality and little ambition, people often criticise Chelsea for sacking their managers, but it's worked for them, they have have countless success because of it, meanwhile we stick with a manager for 22 years and endure 15 years of relative failure and then bring another guy who is totally failing and yet it's OK because hiring and firing is beneath us.

For me it shows how much the club managed the fans expectations to the point that a large part of the fanbase see us as some 2nd rate club and positively embrace going for a lower quality of player/manager than a top club should.

If we're a top club let's behave like one, if not let's accept we'll linger in midtable, playing average football and attracting mediocre players, if that's the case though, maybe the ticket prices should fall to be more aligned with our newly found status.

The problem is that fans have a cavalier attitude to the fortunes of their club. Yes it makes them miserable when the team performs poorly, but it doesnt affect the bank balance and life outside that 90 mins wont get better or worse each week. Thats why we say, lets appoint a rookie and see how it goes. It takes a cataclysmic event to make people wake up and see how days of our lives are withered away while we watch others reach for the top and we mumble about competing some day in the future.
If Spuds had won the CL last may Im sure there would be placards at each game by now, but since it was Pool, we resign ourselves to 2nd best. Pool won it, and they are in that league, so we accept our 2nd or now 3rd level status.
Ive been supporting this club since I was a kid in 73 watching Charlie George and GG strut their stuff. In those almost 50 years we have only once come close to winning the CL.
Another 20 years and maybe we will be the only London club without a CL trophy and people will still be advocating for a rookie to manage the 5th richest club in England and top 10 in world football

Wenger wasted at least 12 years of this clubs fortunes and we still are prepared to add on another decade of stagnation

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Originally Posted by Özim

The difference between Arsenal and other big clubs is that at Arsenal there seems to be a general attitude that appointing a top proven manager is a bad idea and that we should instead focus on some untried rookie, because we see ourselves as some sort of superior club that must nurture young players and feel that a top manager would cost too much and not want to come.

The thing is, a top manager will come if he senses ambition when you speak to him, if you show him the club are serious about challenging and are willing to push the boat out, then you can easily convince them.

The trouble is the board and owner aren't ambitious, moreover many of the fans convince themselves that appointing a top proven manager won't work, I dont see why not, they succeed for a reason because they know how to, that lot down the road have appointed a winner and after a terrible run have won their first game away and won again last night.

It only seem to be at Arsenal where small time managers (or people who have never managed) are popular, maybe that's why we ended up with a guy like Emery, small time mentality and little ambition, people often criticise Chelsea for sacking their managers, but it's worked for them, they have have countless success because of it, meanwhile we stick with a manager for 22 years and endure 15 years of relative failure and then bring another guy who is totally failing and yet it's OK because hiring and firing is beneath us.

For me it shows how much the club managed the fans expectations to the point that a large part of the fanbase see us as some 2nd rate club and positively embrace going for a lower quality of player/manager than a top club should.

If we're a top club let's behave like one, if not let's accept we'll linger in midtable, playing average football and attracting mediocre players, if that's the case though, maybe the ticket prices should fall to be more aligned with our newly found status.

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The difference between Arsenal and other big clubs is that we're currently living well beyond our means, have gambled next year's budget on something that probably isn't going to come off, and we have neither the regular CL income nor the free-spending billionaire sugar-daddy needed to cover it. The infrastructure is also still in transition and all a bit of a mess right now. Believe me, I'd love to be in a place where we could casually bring in a top, proven coach and "push the boat out" for them, but I'm not sure we actually have a boat to push at the moment? That's not snobbery or superiority, it's just the reality of our present situation - we've gotten ourselves in a mess and we need to get our house in order before we can seriously think about approaching those kind of coaches again.

(What makes it all doubly-annoying is that we probably could afforded to give a top, proven coach some decent backing if we'd canned Emery off after the Europa final and made our move then.)

That being said, I do think there are still bold, ambitious appointments out there for us to make - top coaches, if you will - I just think we need to move for them early in their careers, like Klopp when he was still at Mainz (basically the coaching equivalent of moving for VVD when he was still at Celtic). That's where I think we are right now.