A fallacy quashed?

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Originally Posted by Darth Vela

Well, if you can only see reasoned debates as either prosecuting or excusing then yeah we ain't going anywhere.

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Mate, all I have done in this thread is show that contrary to popular belief, AW has always had money to spend if he wanted to (and no, not city or chelsea kind of money) which he has chosen not to. The facts are clear -- that is not persecution!

Wenger has persistently claimed 'he knows what he is doing' and he was going to "do it his way". Those are pretty bold statements.

It turns out he doesn't know what he is doing -- no excuses. Let's not invent more excuses than what have already piled up over the last 5 seasons.

And the reason why, people use the the "judge me in may" statement he made at the start of last season is because of the summary dismissiveness he showed to any concerns or criticisms of his squad from then until the predictably spectacular capitulation of the team towards the end of the season.

Also, until the proper annual end-of-season collapse he was still dismissive of any criticism of his squad based on the fact that we were second in the league --- using that as definition of success when it became clear we don't have it in us to catch the league leaders. It turned out we couldn't even hold on to that second spot!

This dismissiveness and display of arrogance rightly leaves no room for sympathy in some quarters.

If you want to call that persecution --- be my guest.

It is akin to the guy who shoplifts to feed his hungry family who when busted pleads that he was only doing whatever was necessary; but it turns out he's consistently passed up opportunities to make an honest living for himself and his family.

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Originally Posted by budesonide

Mate, all I have done in this thread is show that contrary to popular belief, AW has always had money to spend if he wanted to (and no, not city or chelsea kind of money) which he has chosen not to. The facts are clear -- that is not persecution!

Wenger has persistently claimed 'he knows what he is doing' and he was going to "do it his way". Those are pretty bold statements.

It turns out he doesn't know what he is doing -- no excuses. Let's not invent more excuses than what have already piled up over the last 5 seasons.

And the reason why, people use the the "judge me in may" statement he made at the start of last season is because of the summary dismissiveness he showed to any concerns or criticisms of his squad from then until the predictably spectacular capitulation of the team towards the end of the season.

Also, until the proper annual end-of-season collapse he was still dismissive of any criticism of his squad based on the fact that we were second in the league --- using that as definition of success when it became clear we don't have it in us to catch the league leaders. It turned out we couldn't even hold on to that second spot!

This dismissiveness and display of arrogance rightly leaves no room for sympathy in some quarters.

If you want to call that persecution --- be my guest.

It is akin to the guy who shoplifts to feed his hungry family who when busted pleads that he was only doing whatever was necessary; but it turns out he's consistently passed up opportunities to make an honest living for himself and his family.

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Top post.

Let me also add that it is not only in terms of investment where we have failed. I think one of our major drawbacks have been the super laid back attitude of the players. AW could not even motivate the tossers for the CC final where we got dominated by a relegated team! Our squad is talented but it needs a few solid man managers starting with AW himself. I feel AW benefited a lot from the players that were already in the side or bought by other managers i.e. Adams, Keown, Bergkamp etc. Of course Vieira was a top buy but how many leaders are there in this current team or from the teams of the last 4 years. Unfortunately the closest name that comes to my mind is William Gallas- our capi..

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

The point is....drumroll.....he can't coach defence! What's the matter with you? How comes other coaches can grab a guy from other leagues and turn them into decent defenders? Vidic is another example.

This is why it's not just about finances.

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The point is....drumroll.....he can't coach defence!

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well lets get someone decent in that can! and that does not necessarily mean get rid of Wenger but get better defensive coach to share the load because I am sure that Wenger oversees things and there are coaches that should be specialising in things and if there isn't you can bet that Stan, coming from his American sports background will be thinking why the hell not.

Steve Bould is praised for his work and has his name mentioned more often than not and he was almost the closet that Arsenal have had to a nutter at the back! (I say closet because I swear the likes of Keown or even earlier Willie Young were fed raw meat!!!)

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Originally Posted by AKBapologist

The fundamental truth is, and I think you all know this, without city's and chelseas billions, we'd have won plenty over the last few years.

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The fact we have not finshed in the top 2 or ever looked like winning a trophy tells me we would never had regardless. The attitude of the Manager/players would not have let us win a thing.

All Chelsea and the mancs spending has done, is make us finish a place lower then we would have anyway.

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Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

The fact we have not finshed in the top 2 or ever looked like winning a trophy tells me we would never had regardless. The attitude of the Manager/players would not have let us win a thing.

All Chelsea and the mancs spending has done, is make us finish a place lower then we would have anyway.

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Yup, add the fact this team has a comical way of completey falling apart under the slightest bit of pressure.

I think the Carling Cup Final told us all we need to know about this team, we weren't even unlucky to lose, we deserved to lose.

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Originally Posted by AKBapologist

The fundamental truth is, and I think you all know this, without city's and chelseas billions, we'd have won plenty over the last few years.

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Like...

Keown was our defensive coach for a period but was moved on for some reason. We just had Campbell in our team and I'm not sure why he wasn't offered a player/coach role.

You've got another thread on here about Adams and said he doesn't want to return to Arsenal as a No.2.

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“I would love to go back to Arsenal one day, but not as No 2 or a defensive coach.
“Arsene Wenger would not let me do enough. He does all the coaching, so I don’t think I could work under him. It’s a tougher job at Gabala than at Arsenal.” Adams told the Daily Express.

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http://news.arseblog.com/index.php/2...anage-arsenal/

I get the impression likes to do things his way. What are you going to tell a man like that? This is why I'm not buying into this 'poor old Wenger' rubbish.

Ivan Gladis from the AST interview. "...Removing the manager from the financial aspects to me doesn't make a lot of sense because you have to discuss the worth of a player, and as I've said, everything is about efficiency when you have a limited spend, so you need to prioritise where your going to spend your money and how much an individual player is worth, so it's very difficult for me to imagine having a manager that says 'now that's the player I want now go get him' and you make up what you think the price is - there has to be a dialogue with the manger."


Chelsea and City, has made it harder to attract players of a higher quality for the rates and prices our resources would have otherwise allowed. With better transfers, and a weaker breath of competition, it's a no brainer we would have won more titles.



Edit: the more and more you hear the clear it becomes just how constrained transfers have been so far, feels like we've been running to the margins with what our resources would allow. Whelp.

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Originally Posted by AKBapologist

Ivan Gladis from the AST interview. "...Removing the manager from the financial aspects to me doesn't make a lot of sense because you have to discuss the worth of a player, and as I've said, everything is about efficiency when you have a limited spend, so you need to prioritise where your going to spend your money and how much an individual player is worth, so it's very difficult for me to imagine having a manager that says 'now that's the player I want now go get him' and you make up what you think the price is - there has to be a dialogue with the manger."


Chelsea and City, has made it harder to attract players of a higher quality for the rates and prices our resources would have otherwise allowed. With better transfers, and a weaker breath of competition, it's a no brainer we would have won more titles.



Edit: the more and more you hear the clear it becomes just how constrained transfers have been so far, feels like we've been running to the margins with what our resources would allow. Whelp.

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AKB, stop making it out to be so simplistic. It's not like the competition is completely unfair and is solely related to finances.

There is two sides to the argument here, sure with a stronger financial backing we may well have fared a little better over the past 5 years, but equally, if you handicap yourself tactically it really doesn't help either.

I really don't understand the context of this limited spend either? Limited in comparison to what? Limited in comparison to the revenue we bring in? Limited in comparison to some of our major rivals? Half of the problem we have is that the Board & Arsene come out with these cryptic sound bites about finances that don't really mean anything and can be interpreted anyway you want them to be.

Nobody is saying we have unlimited funds either.

Confirms what I've been saying from the start and on other threads. People like to blame the board when talking about our transfer policy and make out as if Wenger has no authority. This quote shows that he is involved and it goes as far as making an estimate on a players value. Go back to the original thread post about Dein and Wenger and you might start to see the bigger picture.