When will Arteta be sacked by

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Originally Posted by Letters

Only game we've lost all season, a point off the top of the table after a good 4-0 away win and Arteta out? :lol:

You lot are silly!

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I don’t think this is me straw manning you, I think this is where I’m pointing to and saying…maybe given you don’t watch Arsenal play live, it’s a little bit much for you to be so dismissive.

Your recent post suggested I’m saying you should agree with me. No like I say I appreciate that there’s an argument for caution. But saying you lot are silly? especially when no one has stated “we must sack him now” - rather stating how games like last night exemplify the grave misgivings they have of this coach. I think calling people silly seemed silly in its dismissive attitude, and conveyed a sense to me of the “this is fine” meme dog.

Claiming I’m being snobbish by saying “you’re not watching the games” is utterly absurd. I know nothing about your life or your social/work commitments to know whether you avoiding watching the games is a choice or there simply isn’t the time for you to sit down and watch them either live or find somewhere that shows the whole match afterwards. It’s no reflection, I don’t hold with this childish “you’re not as much as a fan than me” bollocks.

It’s just a statement of fact, that by watching the highlights you’re not getting the full picture. I’m not saying at all that if you watched the full match you’d change your mind (in fact I’d say that’s highly unlikely as your argument is far less determined by performances) but maybe your dismissiveness might carry a bit more weight than it does currently.

Also to pick up on other arguments you made

Our overall goal scoring this season in the league has been padded out with a lot of penalties. Now as you know, not every penalty that gets awarded stems from the denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity, in fact I’d argue that possibly one of the five penalties we’ve been awarded this season would have resulted in a goal had the player not made the foul (and that was the one at palace) but in fairness that’s speculative. But when almost 40% of your league goals are reliant on refereeing decisions that does provide pause for contemplation.

And also you disagree that ten games can give you a fairly good idea of how a season will go? Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?. I’d have to go back to the 01/02 title winning season where like now our performances at home are decidedly ropey (even worse given we only won once in our first five league games at Highbury) although I’d say that the performances were good even if the results were not and you could see scope for improvement.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

My main gripe with Arteta is his weird lack of ability to react to things in game. It doesn’t matter how things are playing out I feel like the changes he makes are already pre-programmed. The lack of flexibility will prevent him from being considered an elite coach. Though because of his links with Pep and general reputation in the game he’ll still probably land on his feet whenever his career takes him.

I think he has definitely earned the right to see this out. It’s difficult to justify removing a coach who has overseen quite a significant transformation of the club and team itself. Let’s not forget how fucking awful it was in the dying days of Wenger and the years that followed. You only have to look at the posts here to see how much apathy there was.

Ultimately, we don’t have an Abramovich style owner so we’re never going to be a club who won’t accept not winning. So whoever the coach is, will most likely be given all the time they need until something goes disastrously wrong. I do think the expectation to succeed is fair though now, 4 years is a long time and with the money we’ve spent in recent seasons a league title is definitely something that should feel within reach.

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I think Arteta is a decent to very good modern manager but he has plenty of faults. I think he has done very well up until now and reshaped the team / squad well albeit with pretty much an open chequebook.

The end of last season and the performances this season have raised a lot of questions about Arteta and the team in general. Whilst Arteta should be given time, he should also be judged on a results and performance basis, because he pretty much has the squad he wants now. He spent a lot of money in the summer and has arguably made us worse, at least that's how it looks right now.

I am prepared to give him time, but I do have big expectations of this team and expect a top 2 finish in PL and a domestic trophy in one of the cups. Given the spend and the quality of players we have I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I don’t think this is me straw manning you

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These are the straw mans:

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it”

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I didn't say that, I've been very clear about my stance.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

If your attitude is “oh we will probably lose to city at the weekend but never mind, we are better off than where we were three years ago”

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Completely made up, and I've just said that yet another loss to City would be concerning.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

If you don’t watch the games and are just comfortable with a top four finish, then yeah there’s nothing to be concerned about.

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Also completely made up.

I've also clarified what is silly - bumping this thread after every bad result. If it was a bad run of results well OK, that would be different.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Claiming I’m being snobbish by saying “you’re not watching the games” is utterly absurd.

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It's not that in itself, it's the implication that because I don't watch the games my opinions are invalid, or less valid. Fine, I'd accept I'm not getting the full picture by only watching highlights, but you do watch games and your predictions have not exactly been spot on so far. You accuse me of being dismissive - even though I've agreed with many of you concerns, including the one about goal-scoring. It feels to me you are being dismissive of me because I don't watch as avidly as you these days so I don't get a right to an option.
(For the record, I stopped going because of a combination of dad's health declining, it getting horribly expensive and getting married and thus having different priorities. I don't watch much these days because my general interest in football has declined. Partly I guess because Arsenal aren't the force we were, partly because of a general ennui with the modern game where trophies are bought up left right and centre, the modern players are mostly unlikeable fannies and now we've got VAR buggering things up)

As for this:

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

And also you disagree that ten games can give you a fairly good idea of how a season will go? Can you name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started?

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Before things got really crap under Wenger we went through a whole sequence of seasons where we'd either
1) Start like a train, look like potential title contenders and then fall apart and just about limp into the top 4.
2) Start really poorly, everyone would run around screaming, say we were going to end up in mid table or worse and then we'd go on this ridiculous run and just about haul ourselves into the top 4.

Again, I'm not disputing performances have been patchy, but results have not which is the main thing early season. What is this false negative? We're a point off the top of the table.

I like how you’ve ignored that all these things you’ve quoted contain qualifiers like If, so rather than actually asserting “that’s what you believe” I’m actually saying if that’s what you believe, and you’ve clarified that you don’t so claiming that I’m straw manning you is simply a case of your perception. In fact the nearest I’ve come is saying “it seems that” which is not me asserting you believe this or that, this is me saying this is how it’s coming across. And again you’ve clarified that this is not the case.

Crikey, hauling ourselves into the top 4 is not a measure of a good season. It was a sign that we were treading water. Now in hindsight you can argue that Wenger actually did very well in getting us top 4 because of the restrictions on finances and on the whole (far more than I admittedly was at the time) I’m wholly sympathetic to that view.

I’m saying our ambition is no longer limited. In fact because of FFP, the only advantage the kleptocrat owned clubs have over us is that they got a good head start on us. But as I’ve said Haaland aside, City’s best players are ageing…they simply can’t take the piss by splashing out to replace like for like. That over time creates a more and more level playing field. The excuse of the “well can you be surprised when they can just buy themselves a whole team” doesn’t wash, look at Chelsea’s spending it’s done by implementing mammoth long contracts and by signing prospects rather than top quality players.

I can’t be clearer than I’ve been, this is our time. Arguably not just our time to compete but potentially to dominate. We have a pathway opening up to us due to changing circumstances but its not an opportunity that will last forever, the best players in our squad will start getting older whilst we play it safe not wanting to upset what we think we’ve already achieved.

With a top coach we absolutely could not only win the league but retain it for the first time since the 1930s, and finally announce our arrival as one of the top clubs in Europe by winning the champions league. We cannot do this by handwringing and saying “well I don’t want to rock the boat, he did finish 2nd with us and he deserves a chance to push us on”

He deserves this season and even that shouldn’t be guaranteed. I don’t see why even finishing 2nd this season should buy him anymore time unless it’s a result of another gigantic points haul from City. And what if City aren’t title winners? What if Liverpool manage to win it….does finishing second or third become just as acceptable then.

For this club to reach its true potential, requires being bold and it’s not for the faint hearted. And if a coach is a barrier to that progress, there shouldn’t be hesitation about dispensing with that coach

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I like how you’ve ignored that all these things you’ve quoted contain qualifiers like If

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But why say it at all? Just saying "If you think that...", it kinda implies you believe I might think that. I don't think I've said anything which does imply those things.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Crikey, hauling ourselves into the top 4 is not a measure of a good season.

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In today's episode of "things Letters didn't say"...
Your question was "name me a season where the first ten games were an utterly false negative and the season unfolded far better than how it started".
There are multiple seasons where that happened. And others when the reverse happened. There were a few seasons where our form was very patchy early season and people on here ranted about how we were going to finish mid-table, the more hysterical people suggested we could go down. Weren't you here then? If so you surely remember all that whining. And we ended up Top 4. You could consider that the bare minimum, but that's a separate discussion. So yes, unless the early season results are really catastrophic, and ours haven't been, they're not that indicative of where you'll end up. It's widely acknowledged that Christmas is the first important milestone in a season, that's when the table really takes shape. I said elsewhere that years ago papers didn't even publish tables this early in a season as it was all a bit meaningless.

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I’m saying our ambition is no longer limited.

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And I wouldn't disagree. We were genuine contenders last season, contrary to everyone's expectations. We've invested heavily in the summer (arguably not well, but the board have certainly backed Arteta). That puts the pressure on to deliver. All I'm saying is it's too early to say how that's going to work out.
I'm not disagreeing there are some warning signs that all is not well.
I'm sceptical that FFP has much teeth. But what is certainly true is our spending power is much higher than it was which puts us on or close to a level playing field with the other usual suspects.

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I can’t be clearer than I’ve been, this is our time. Arguably not just our time to compete but potentially to dominate.

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I don't really agree. The way I see it we now have more clubs who can spend big, not less. I think the top 4 could get more competitive. I said above that our spending power now puts us on a level playing field, but I do also think there are more clubs on that field. City are having their moment in the sun, those periods of dominance don't last forever but I don't think it's clear that we are their natural successors. We're certainly one of the clubs who could be, but there are others.

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He deserves this season and even that shouldn’t be guaranteed. I don’t see why even finishing 2nd this season should buy him anymore time unless it’s a result of another gigantic points haul from City. And what if City aren’t title winners? What if Liverpool manage to win it….does finishing second or third become just as acceptable then.

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I think what's acceptable is a good question, although I do raise an eyebrow at people who seem to think of Arsenal like dining in a fine restaurant and if the food and service isn't absolutely amazing then they should have a paddy about it being completely unacceptable. Football is a highly competitive sport where everyone else is trying to spoil your meal, to continue the (not very good) analogy. There are multiple clubs who are able to spend big, we are not uniquely placed to dominate

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And if a coach is a barrier to that progress, there shouldn’t be hesitation about dispensing with that coach

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Well sure. But I don't believe it's currently clear that Arteta is that barrier.
And it's equally unclear that another manager would facilitate or enable progress. The fact said coach did so elsewhere is no guarantee that he (or she ;)) would with us.
As discussed, I am a bit risk adverse. I admit that. But I would note that when Wenger left things did initially get worse before they got better. People can look back with 20:20 hindsight and say it was inevitable because he left us in such a mess. But the rhetoric on here at the time was that Wenger was such a bumbling idiot that anyone would come in and do better. That's not what happened. Replacing Conte worked at Spurs because the relationship between the squad and manager had broken down and the result was a massive underperformance from them. In that situation replacing the manager was a clear decision. But that isn't the situation at Arsenal so the decision to replace Arteta is much less clear to me.

I think you’re being a bit obtuse here, the point being made isn’t that we will finish mid table but that top four in of itself is no longer acceptable as a minimum target. And to say it’s too soon to suggest whether we will achieve more than that is wide of the mark. Likely we will finish in the top four, but not make a sustained title challenge.

The point is, you’re not being clear what you do think is acceptable. Because it feels for me like you’re saying you do have the ambition but then you’re kind of getting a bit “now hold on a second” when it’s suggested that there are ways for us to reach it.

For the reasons I’ve suggested I think it is our time, Newcastle it’s going to be a few years before they are ready to challenge, City could well have peaked, United and Chelsea are in a complete and utter mess…which leaves Liverpool who have a far better coach than us but I think we have greater spending power than they do.


My suggestion is we take advantage and look and be open towards getting an improvement on Arteta. And if you don’t think it’s clear that he is a barrier and that last season was his high water mark…I’d say the burden is on you to suggest why that might not be the case. And “well we don’t know yet” is simply not a response worthy of any serious consideration, especially when you have condemned people for being silly for stating that he can’t take us further.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

. Why it’s taken him so long to win the champions league with City and why he never succeeded in doing so with Barcelona.

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Minor correction: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011...s_League_final