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Well, well, well.
Here we are again picking the bones out of another toothless performence in the CL knockout stages.
How can we score 11 goals in two games and not have a single shot against Porto?
I am not going to score the players because it would be one's and two's, at best.
I am really not sure if we will turn this around at the Emirates. At least away goals no longer count double, that would have killed us.
Its the hope that kills you :sarcy:
It was a careless defeat but I think we were in control throughout and a 0-0 would have been about right. Neither defence was really pulled apart. Sometimes wonder goals and flukes can happen, it was just a shame we didn’t really give them anything to think about because we know we’re capable of much better.
It’s only half time and the job is very much doable. Hopefully we get an early goal to settle the nerves in the second leg, though my PTSD is also telling me we will dominate the game but fluff our chances…
Anyway, on to more pressing matters and that’s breaking down Newcastle this weekend who will come and park the bus.
Yeah I’m more annoyed about the careless conceding of a goal right at last knockings rather than the overall performance. You could argue that Galeno should have scored in the first half….then again I’d say he was unlucky with the first shot and the second shot came back to him so quickly he had no time to control it.
I don’t think that amounts to Porto deserving to win the game, they deserved to win in so far that they scored and we didn’t but this stuff about them being streetwise and us being naive which the media is running with is bollocks. And they wouldn’t have run with it, had Galeno not scored.
We were a bit wasteful and in the days of the away goal rule I’d have been frustrated for us not to have scored there, but it didn’t matter. In reality not much has changed, we still need to win at the Emirates to go through
Actually, I think we got schooled by a horrible bunch of shithousers, aided and abetted by a ref who bought almost every bit of bollox from Porto.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Their late goal wasn't the result of any tactical brilliance on Porto's part, but it was sure as hell naive from us. Nothing in the preceding 90+3 suggested that we were going to get through their defence and score (did we even have a shot on goal), and while I'd agree that we largely retained control of the game it was naive for us to risk losing possession at the death. 0-0 would have been a fair result and preventing them from scoring at home would have been a creditable result for our team that was sub-par all night. Porto and the crowd were looking for a grandstand finish - and we served it up to them on a platter.
But IMO Porto were very good at executing a game plan based around nullifying our set piece threat (by feigning fouls); isolating our wingers; breaking up play (albeit assisted by our profligacy and lack of zip in completing passes); and generally taking very few risks when playing out from the back. I think that this was savvy on their part, and contributed to us looking strangely flat.
I think that maybe another contributor was fatigue - and as I've said before, this can be mental as well as physical. While I have no particular issue with our starting line up, I think that the manager's failure to change anything after 60 - when a clear pattern had emerged, was a mistake. I don't think that we would have run any significant risk in subbing off Trossard or Martinelli - who were anonymous and ineffective respectively - as well as bringing on Jorghino earlier. This would at least have given the opposition something new to think about. As it was they looked comfortable - and were able simply to carry on doing their effective blunting job.
This game showed that we still have a turgid; stale performance in us. I'm not getting too despondent about this - it happens. But I am now more fearful for Saturday after a very short rest - and we have a job to score 2 or more against this lot at home next week.
I'd give our team a mix of 5s and 6s, a lot of huff and puff but we were really off our game
Rice in particular completely lost his cool, getting booked for a really dumb tackle a few minutes in and proceeding to misplace passes and mess up almost eveything he did, bar - to be fair - a very good interception in front of our goal
The goal was a catalogue of errors from a side who looked far more at sea in this game than they should, Saka, Rice, Odegaard and others have played a lot of internationals but no-one looked up to deailng with the occasion - it doesn't bode well for our hopes of progressing much further in this competition
No-one did particularly well and it's a worry ahead of the Newcastle game, partly through lack of squad options it will probably be more or less the same starting XI and Howe will be telling his players to really get amongst us right from the off
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
I dunno, take away the ref and the shithousing and we are still left with a team that had decent opportunities from
Set pieces…if actually any of them had been on target or gone in but were chalked off for a foul I can see how that would have made a difference.
They did enough to put us off our stride and prevent us from winning, but ultimately we did enough to limit their chances apart from when we dithered from wanting too much time on the ball.
All their tactics would have come to nothing if not for the fact that we decided not to just hold onto the ball in the final minute of the game.
I reckon we should employ a tried and tested Manager for just European games ##Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Arteta can have that week off and leave it to say, Anceleotti as a part time CL coach! :jumpnana:
Not sure about this. We were favourites for this tie, and their tactics nullified our threat. I think they did so for our set pieces also, but even if this wasn't the case, reducing a team like Arsenal to set pieces for any goal threat speaks to effective tactics for me. Shithousing and preventing any cohesion going forwards is a game plan - and let's remember they created the only chances from open play in this game - and playing on the break was also part of their game plan. If we see the 2 legs as two halves of a game, then they would have been the happier team even had it remained at 0-0 as it should have done, so I don't think we can say their tactics would have come to nothing. We are an inexperienced team and manager in the CL, and I think this showed. I hope the manager has an answer for the return leg.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Given that this season in the league, we have tended to score more goals in the second half (23-35) I think we could say we would be reasonably content with a 0-0 if we consider the tie rather than the individual fixture. In my mind we are still favourites for the tie….we have played Portuguese opposition at the Emirates 7 times, won five of those matches and Porto have never scored in their three previous visits to us let alone got a result….(11 goals to none for them). That’s not to say they can’t get a draw or a sucker punch win. But like Bayern Munich against Lazio, we are still favourites.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
I don't disagree with that, but we need to do a lot better if we are to score the 2 goals or more needed at home...Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I honestly believe that we will struggle to turn this around. If the second leg drags on at 0-0, can Arteta come up with a plan B? I personally am not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
Possibly not, but our squad is so thin I for once have some sympathy with him regarding lack of options, we need to clear out some crap and get better quality players in the summerQuote:
Originally Posted by Chippy
For various reasons (quite a few to do with being injured so often) ESR, Partey, Nelson, Suarez, Elneny, Zin, Tomi, Eddie all need to go, there's probably a few more I'm missing too
Who is Suarez?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I don’t think we want to go overboard. The problem is getting money for these players.
I got 25 million for Reiss Nelson from Real Madrid in FM but in the real world that’s not happening. Same with ESR who is constantly injured.
I think Elneny and Jorginho will go (his 18 month contract will be up and he will choose to go back to Italy) as will Partey. Zinchenko is only being in sold in your wet dreams. Eddie? Possible a team like Bournemouth or Palace will snaffle him up but we sure as hell aren’t getting our 40 million asking price.
I think we are likely to try to bring in Zubimendi, possibly Onana from Everton (depending on whether they avoid the drop), a right winger and a striker.
Nelson is talented and home-grown, there's no way a team like Palace or suchlike wouldn't pay at least £25 for him and also pay more than that for Eddie IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
On Zin, I'm giving my own opinion so whether or not Arteta would sell him is irrelevant - obvs i would have sold him even before it became clear he's only ever fit for half a season (tbh that's a blessing IMO) but that just takes away any (however debatable) benefit of having him in the squad
Jorg will stay IMO, he brings a lot to the team and has another season at least in him, it would be very difficult to find a repalcemnt with that kind of quality and experience
I hope Jorginho stays. He is an important asset to the team in games where we need control in MF, and is an experienced on pitch 'manager' in a callow team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Aside from fitness issues, I have been surprised by the antipathy to Zinchenko. IMO he is an important weapon for us when we need to face teams who will not come out and play against us. We could sorely have done with him on Wednesday night, as we struggled badly to break down Porto's organised shape. The thing is that he is not suited to every game - both because of his unavailability and his defensive lapses (albeit that I think the latter have been overblown).
I think what Arteta needs to look at going forwards is using both Jesus and Zin as part time players rather than nailed on starters. This is how Pep used both of them. Arteta's problem has been relying on both as ever presents, but he has had success in adapting to their unavaliablity, and we need to build on this, rather than getting rid. Timber was meant to address the LB position. I am certain that we will sign a number 9 in the Summer - the intention to provide more reliable goal scoring than Jesus, who can then be used to play accross the front 3 when needed.
So neither should be sold if we are going to progress.
If we do bring in a striker, then there's not much point in keeping Eddie. Trossard and Havertz can provide alternative 2/3rd choice options that fit into the team better than Eddie does.
Nelson is a conundrum. He doesn't look up to the level of our team, but he hasn't really been given the opportunity. But if the manager doesn't fancy him, then I agree with you that there will be a market for him (as well as Nketiah).
Of the 3 (includign ESR) I would be inclined to keep Emile rather than the other 2 to deal with the home grown talent issue - as I think at this stage his star has fallen lower that his Hale End counterparts.
I agree with most of this although unsurprisingly i disagree Zin's defensive lapses are overblown - he's a disaster as an LB, admittedly partly because the largely-unnecessary inverted role means he basically abandons the position anyway, but at least once a game he gives the ball away in very dangerous positions and it hsa cost us on numerious occasions - e.g. the home Fulham game this season - imagine how the table would look if he hadn't dropped us those two pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by IBK
in general he also slows our game down by too often putting his foot on the ball and/or passing sideways - IMO he gets too much praise for the one or two times he actually remembers to pass the ball forward in any given game
I genuinely think one of the reasons we have - prior to Porto - been doing so well lately is the abseince of the way Zin slows things down - we're much quicker in transition without him, plus i think Kiwior is growing into the team really well and proving positive in both defence and attack
I'd love to see an analysis of how many points we've got with him as opposed to without him - i did one last season at some point so might try to do that again - I'm willing to bet that we've gained more points when he's not played
With Nelson I think you might have had a point 3-4 years ago but even with Joe Willock we only got 20 odd million after he’d been Newcastle’s star performer on loan thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
The likelihood is to get what you think we should be getting for him will necessitate a similar scenario. Now I see no reason why that wouldn’t happen, but given what has happened already to Everton, what could happen to Forest etc….clubs are just not going to spend beyond their means.
I’m well aware of the issue you have with Zinchenko, my feeling is I don’t feel as strongly as I did a year ago especially as he’s become more of a squad option….and I think of all our left back options he’s the one that operates the best with Martinelli in my view.
I’m also not keen to spend any more money on defenders. Long term Timber, Zinchenko, White, Tomi, Kiwior, Saliba and Gabriel is more than adequate.
Agree with IBK that buying a striker means we have no further use for Eddie.
Jorginho has done well since he’s been with us, but I’m not keen on keeping any outfield player past the age he is now especially not in central midfield. Plus I’d actually like to have a midfielder who is more comfortable in possession when not given time on the ball - neither he nor Rice nor Partey fit that description. This is why I wanted Caicedo so much
Although that comes with the Caveat that Caicedo has been notorious for giving the ball away this season
That plus its academic anyway we won’t be signing him unless my dream comes true and Chelsea go into liquidation (which isn’t going to happen either)
I’d like to see Charlie Patino make the squad next season too