There was a poll done a while back, but now that the season's over, I wonder how people's opinions have changed (if they have changed).
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There was a poll done a while back, but now that the season's over, I wonder how people's opinions have changed (if they have changed).
I don't think he deserves to be sacked, I think that would be quite disrespectful considering he's not doing THAT bad a job.
However I do feel the time is right for a change but I understand he's not going anywhere until 2014 at the earliest, so that's why this never ending cycle of stagnation is very frustrating.
Hmm, I still don't think he is giving us the best chance of success but then I wouldn't want us to shoot our bolt and put us in a situation where a better replacement won't be able to come.
And at the moment, I think that would probably be the case.
Do I want a managerial change? Yep
Do I think he should be sacked for delivering what the Board wants? Nope.
100% yes and he can take the board with him as well, amazed at how quikcly people's opinions change in this place to be honest, he's a cat with 9 lives.
There's nothing about him I like these days, hate the way he BS's all the time, hate the way he seems to have no tactics and his team pretty much plays the same way regardless of the opposition, hate his passing football, hate his substitutions, don't think much of his ideals and other than the odd decent signing his transfer activity and stingyness are annoying, also hate the way he thinks 4th place is an amazing achievement and how he settles for this.
Should have quit the club soon after 2005 IMO, he'd have been a legend then, he's totally screwed that up in my eyes now and been in reality has shown he's not that great a manager after all.
Let's relieve him of his duties then, or send him upstairs as long as he has nothing to do with the playing side of the club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
As poor a manager as i think Wenger is these days, there is a part of me that doesnt want to see him get sacked.
What he gave us from 96-05 was the best time ever as a gooner and that will stay for me til the end of time and i think he should be given the respect of not being sacked and letting him walk on his own accord.
Of course, if he doesnt walk this summer then sack the **** tbh
Let's be honest, he'll never walk of his own accord, not on 7 million a year...that only leaves one option really.
If he wants to walk then great, but we all know he won't.
You think a poor manager would have finished 3rd this year?
I don't think many managers in the world could have seen his two best midfielders leave, make some panic buys and still finish 3rd. That said, why did last summer happen? Wenger said he could write a book about it. I hope he does one day, I'd love to read it. I don't believe the mess last summer was all his fault but he's not blameless either. There are some more encouraging signs this summer - doing business early, trying to bolster the squad and show a bit of ambition. But we have to sort out the van Persie situation, we can't let that rumble on all summer and see him leave in August when it's too late to sign replacements.
The opposition fans I talk to just can't believe the way Arsenal fans berate Wenger. Several clubs have spent a huge amount of money trying to leapfrog us and repeatedly failed. City have succeeded of course but chuck a billion quid at any PL club and they'd want to be finishing above us. How much did 'King Kenny' spend? One league cup, an awful league season and the sack. Top 4 should not be the limit of our ambition. I don't believe it is, although it is the number one priority for Wenger and the board and the reality is in the modern game that has to be our priority. The money and prestige of being in the CL is just too important to dismiss. We should be winning trophies here and there but the achievement of finishing in the CL places every single year for 15 years should not be dismissed. But the failure to win trophies shouldn't be overlooked either.
In brief: no, he shouldn't be sacked. The idea of sacking a manager who finished 3rd behind Utd, who have the best manager around, and a side who bought the title is ludicrous.
The same. But it's one of those that you don't give the WUMmy things he does a second thought unless you watch Arsenal every game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I would like a change of manager but I want Wenger to leave himself. But I haven't given it much thought because we all know it's not happening.
I said he's not that great a manager and he isn't, top managers don't go 7 years without success I'm afraid...3rd/4th place is all very good but it's pretty meaningless in any way other than financially.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The opposition fans, well yes cos the grass is always greener on the other side, I'd love to see how they'd feel in our position if their club basically has no chance of ever winning anything, 3rd place is all very good but not if it means giving up any chance of success anywhere else which is what it basically means for us.
It's not ludicrous to sack a manager who's been at a top club and has won nothing in 7 years, he's failed at every level in terms of success, his side have even been beaten by inferior sides, we've seen some of the worst beatings in Arsenal's history under him as well and in recent years' it's got worse. The 3rd place was good but let's be honest here, Spurs bottled it big team and the Redknapp for England thing definitely unsettled them as the bad run seemed to start around then....so we had our fair share of luck there.
Unfortunately in the modern game the finances are the most important thing. We can't do what we did in the 'thoroughly enjoyable' 92/93 season and finish mid-table at the expense of the cups. Liverpool did that this year and their season has been, in your words, a car crash. Had they won the FA Cup Final then that would have mitigated it and Dalglish would probably have kept his job. Fine lines.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Being in the CL is not just about finance anyway. It's about the prestige of the club, making us attractive to players, giving us an international profile. We tend not to go in for the very top players these days - it's not easy to when City, Chelsea and ManYoo can all outspend us - but it still makes is more attractive to the players we are after.
Most clubs don't have a chance of winning anything. Ever. The idea that we don't have a chance is ludicrous. We've been in several Cup Finals and loads of semi-finals since we last won something. And we've had a couple of title challenges too. We've failed to finish the job on each occasion but we surely have more chance of winning something than fans of clubs who never get into those positions.Quote:
The opposition fans, well yes cos the grass is always greener on the other side, I'd love to see how they'd feel in our position if their club basically has no chance of ever winning anything
The first part of that is true, the 2nd is nonsense. You don't see 3rd place as success. The whole football world disagrees with you. As I said clubs spend big to try and achieve that. Syn called Spurs collapse way before the England thing came up. Their first game after the England thing they battered Newcastle 5-0, it was only after that they collapsed. As you say, they bottled it. We put a great run together and won the 'must win' games in the run in when we needed to. Dismiss it as luck all you like, you'd be the first to point to the gap between us and the top two and say "the league table never lies" but you dismiss our achievement of finishing 3rd as 'luck' because otherwise you'd have to give Wenger some credit which you can't bring yourself to do.Quote:
It's not ludicrous to sack a manager who's been at a top club and has won nothing in 7 years, he's failed at every level in terms of success
We won 2 cups in 92/93 had Liverpool done the same it would have been a decent season, the problem is that they only won the CC and had a bad league season, fine lines yes but Kenny got sacked because of this, somehow Wenger gets away with it season after season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Prestige, for a competition that allows 4 clubs from certain countries into it? The competition is a joke IMO and only the money makes the marketing boys see it as anything but that, no competition should allow 4 teams from a country into it, especially when 3 have won nothing. We don't sign any top players so I'm not sure what attracting players has anything to do with, the players we sign tend to be unknowns who are decent value, they'd sign regardless of whether we got into the CL or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We're not most clubs, historically we're one of the biggest clubs in England, we had success before Wenger as well, in addition we have a big stadium and money to spend...not many clubs have this luxury. As for the rich owners, as I've said before, I feel you can compete but you need to spend some money, if you buy the right players and spend on quality you can be successful. Man U would have won this year if not for an incharacteristic collapse and their team isn't really that good.
As for the cup finals etc, these fine lines are fine lines we always seem to be on the wrong side of, this tells me it's down to more than bad luck, I'd put it down to problems in the team and management, there's plenty of games we should have won but everytime we've pretty much failed to...that's says all it needs to IMO, once or twice might be bad luck but not the amount of times it's happened to us. This point is critical as it shows we'll never win anything under Wenger again IMO, other clubs fans patience would soon run out if they were stuck in the same boat, making up the numbers every season isn't fun, as I've said before what Wenger has done is taken away any hope of us winning something.
Spurs bottled it no question and the Redknapp thing certainly had a big impact, before this they were in great form and we had no hope of catching them, this won't happen every season that's for sure, we very nearly bottled it again ourselves but Spurs just blew it for a 2nd time with two games to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
we need a change now but a lot rests on the rvp situation. if he leaves then under no circumstances can we afford to lose the manager too - that would be august/sept 2011 all over again.
as MO said earlier in the thread, he won't be going until the end of next season at the earliest anyway.
he is no longer among the very elite in the game but he is still a very good manager. you are being far too dismissive by saying that 3/4 finishes every seasons means he's not that great. by saying that, that means every other manager and team are very poor - the sort of stuff that players and people inside the game would not agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
3/4 is not a trophy of course and no need to shout from the roof tops about it but it still takes an awful lot of talent to maintain that position in the modern world of football, where very few advantages are found outside of having money. where once only certain teams had the training, diet, tactic and worldwide player knowledge along with the better players as the edge, that information is now common place on every football continent and to stay so close to the top every season requires a lot.
Sacked, steps down, retires....don't care. I just want a change in management. He'll be remembered as a legend.
I agree, but whatever you think of the competition it's where top clubs want to be. Why are clubs spending big to try and get there? 109 million people watched the final last year. More than the Superbowl ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...pe/8490351.stm ). And yes, I know we weren't in the final but the whole competition is massively high profile. Too high profile IMO to the detriment of other comptitions but it is what it is.Quote:
Prestige, for a competition that allows 4 clubs from certain countries into it? The competition is a joke IMO and only the money makes the marketing boys see it as anything but that, no competition should allow 4 teams from a country into it, especially when 3 have won nothing.
I'm not sure that's true. Our more recent signings have been more established players and some of the players we're being linked with right now are not kids. Our CL qualification will undoubtably be a factor in their decisions. Also, I've no idea if RvP will sign a new contract but I tell you one thing for free - had we not qualified for the CL we'd have had no chance of keeping him. CL qualification should not be the limit of our ambitions but its importance shouldn't be underestimated. As I've said clubs are spending a LOT of money to try and achieve it and often failing.Quote:
We don't sign any top players so I'm not sure what attracting players has anything to do with, the players we sign tend to be unknowns who are decent value, they'd sign regardless of whether we got into the CL or not.
True but till the late 80s our successes were few and far between. We had the period of dominance in the 30s but after that we were a big club but didn't win a lot.Quote:
We're not most clubs, historically we're one of the biggest clubs in England, we had success before Wenger
From 1950 to 1989 we won 3 titles (1953, 1971 & 1989). 3 FA Cups (1950, 1971, 1979) and 1 League Cup (1987). That's 7 trophies. In 40 years. Between 1953 and 1971 we won bugger all. We've always been a big club but we've not always been dripping with trophies.
Graham made us successful although the later years were bloody boring. Nice to win the trophies, not so nice to have a season ticket and go to most league games which were awful and we rarely won. Wenger took us to a whole new level - not only exceeding Graham's period of success but doing it with a style of football the like of which most Gooners never thought they'd see Arsenal play.
I agree with a lot of that and I do think Wenger should have been sacked for the lack of trophies. On the other hand it's bloody minded to deny him any credit for us finishing in the CL spots every single year. Fergie is the only other manager to have done it for any length of time and lots of other managers have spent big trying and failed. That should tell you a lot about Wenger too.Quote:
As for the cup finals etc, these fine lines are fine lines we always seem to be on the wrong side of, this tells me it's down to more than bad luck, I'd put it down to problems in the team and management, there's plenty of games we should have won but everytime we've pretty much failed to...that's says all it needs to IMO, once or twice might be bad luck but not the amount of times it's happened to us. This point is critical as it shows we'll never win anything under Wenger again IMO, other clubs fans patience would soon run out if they were stuck in the same boat, making up the numbers every season isn't fun, as I've said before what Wenger has done is taken away any hope of us winning something.
Interesting you mention Graham as he was on TV earlier today saying he was just interested in winning, that was his goal. I believe that's the problem with Wenger, he's not just interested in winning, he wants to do things a certain way and if you win doing this way then great, if however you don't then at least we have done things the way he believes they should be done.
In that sense he isn't a winner.
Ideally AW would resign himself. He has not stood up to his own standards and he sounds just like a CEO or board member speaking. For the sake of what he achieved with us a long time back, I hope he leaves the managerial post on a good note. If he continues the same level of WUMery as last seasons (very likely) then he should be sacked immediately!
Utter rubbish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
And Graham managed in a different era where a side could finish mid-table one year and in the top few the next and there was no great pressure to finish higher up the league if you weren't going to win the thing.
Not bothered each way tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joker
But the board won't sack him so the thread is irrelevant anyways.
Well seen as the board say they will never sack him he can only walk anyways. what he gets paid has nothing to do with him walking or being sacked.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
That is a very good point. There was a lot of pressure on us to win our final match to finish 3rd - pressure that never existed in previous eras. Having said that, we played like nervous schoolgirls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Yep he punched the air and clapped his hands when we lost the CC final thats how much he hates winning. And when we lost 4-1 at Barca in the Cl a few seasons ago it was not upset in his face it was Glee masked as upset because he was not interested in winning i get it now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Too right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Id go with this tbh. He does not need to leave the club and if he wants to be director of football etc fine. But if he decided to do this id not be too upset.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
This is a forum mate. Most of what we discuss isnt going to mean jack shit to anyone directly related to the running of the football club. Does that mean, we stop posting about Arsenal on GW?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
I don't say this much but i agree with this post FY.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
Its Irrelevant because the board won't sack him thats why i said it. Its the fact the OP thinks he could be sacked. If it was do you want Wenger Out then that is different if you see what i mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
It's not, some managers put winning first, for him winning is good but other aspects are as important if not more important, he's not happy to win at all costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Regardless of era, it's the attitude of the manager and Graham said his job was to win nothing else (hence the style of play).
This has been pointed out before and yet come the summer he barely signs anyone, doesn't invest in quality and we end up playing exactly the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
If he was really that bothered he'd try and do something about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
I agree on playing the same way but none of us know for sure on the investment and how much has been given. and i know it seems like the past 7 years will seem like him being cheap. But i don't think we had the money for the most part of the last 7 years.
I Think he wants to win but i think he is lost on how to win still.
Nor am I.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Winning is clearly important to him. You can see his reaction when we're struggling. It's nonsense to say he's not bothered.
He is maybe a little too principled at times but better that than 1-0 to the Arsenal tedium every game even if we did win some trophies doing it.
He hasn't won in 7 years and hasn't really made the necessary changes, he can't be that bothered to be honest....in addition he's always hailing 3rd/4th as an achievement, maybe that's enough for him and he's happy to finish his career without another success, most top managers wouldn't but most managers aren't like him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I think most top managers wouldn't be too proud of just achieving 3rd/4th every season, he seems to be very proud.
My God Charlie :faint:Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
What sort of drugs you on?
Rubbish. Once again you're claiming far more knowledge of what's going on in the club than you have. For at least part of that time we've had the stadium debt restricting us and poor commercial deals which Wenger is nothing to do with. I don't know whether Wenger is looking longer term and trying to clear the debt as soon as possible, whether the board are restricting him more than he'd like, whether it's a principle thing. I suspect all of those may be factors but I don't really know. Nor do you.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Looking at his reactions it's clear he's bothered.
As are the rest of the footballing world. Several clubs have spent big to try and achieve it. Martin Jol got Spurs finishing 5th twice in a row - till then their highest PL finish. He was sacked because he failed to deliver CL football. Mad, but that's the modern game for you.Quote:
In addition he's always hailing 3rd/4th as an achievement
Repeatedly Wenger has finished above clubs who have spent big to qualify while spending far less than them. Top 4 shouldn't be an achievement in the modern game but because of the CL qualification and what it means, it is.
Again, looking at his reactions it clearly isn't. But Wenger should be proud of 15 consecutive seasons qualifying for the CL. How many managers have done it? Fergie. Wenger. That's it.Quote:
maybe that's enough for him and he's happy to finish his career without another success
We lost our 2 best midfielders last summer, we had a horrible start to the season, Spurs fans were lording it over us, we were written off by pretty much everyone and we've finished 3rd again. You said earlier in the season that there was no comparison between our squad and Spurs'. Now you're denying it's an achievement to finish above them.
Whether you regard it as an achievement is irrelevant. The fact is his employers do, the rest of the footballing world does and most fans do too. See how Spurs fans are nervously awaiting tonight's result because of what a Chelsea win would mean.
Id think he love to win something before he retired and he may do that if he goes to another league to manage. i mean he could win the league or cup in France its not that hard and the way he plays will suit that league.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
I don't think Wenger is happy to finish top 4 as much as he says, its more to cover up his failings thats why he says it and to protect his team from the press. he has always done that and always will.
David Moyes has not won a thing in 7 years and with the team he had he could have won at least the CC tbf but i don't see him being called a bad manager or happy to settle in the top 10.
and even though its been 7 years of failure 4 of them years we had the stadium debt to pay off so there was no money tbf.
Like you always say Football is about winning medals etc
Well Wenger has won those and im sure he'd be happy with what he has won in his career it could have been worse he could have won nothing. Thats all that will matter to him at the end off the day.
I think he's happy to finish top 4, Charlie, and so he should be.
I don't think he's happy with us not winning a trophy though.
I mean he'd rather us win the league then finish top 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
He's happier than the likes of Mourinho, Ferguson, Del Bosque, Capello, Lippi, Guardiola etc would be.
Like I said there's different degrees, some managers see winning as the number 1 aim, others see it as desirable but not the be all and end all...Wenger fits into the latter category.