A couple of observations

Let me preface what I say with the comment that I am not saying that the current situation is anything other than extremely disappointing and worrisome.

That being said, if Man City avoid losing tomorrow, not one of the teams I track for my seasons comparison will be even equal to their points total at this stage last season.

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.

Ok.....

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Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner

Let me preface what I say with the comment that I am not saying that the current situation is anything other than extremely disappointing and worrisome.

That being said, if Man City avoid losing tomorrow, not one of the teams I track for my seasons comparison will be even equal to their points total at this stage last season.

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.

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Make some good points but we need to go on a big run tbh. Lets hope this win gives them confidnece. You can't worry about what will happen in 2 or 5 games times.

You can only try and win your next game and so on. Alot depends on the Jan window too. If Aw mans up and brings players in then sure we have a chance.

It won't be discussed or commented on because whether we finish top 4 or not, the problems with the club are too far gone and only dramatic success will see a change of mentality. No Arsenal fan is going to be jumping for joy if we (as expected) meander into the top 4.

As for those above us not performing to last seasons standard, we are over 10 points behind the top 2 so it's scant consolation.

Problem is, our leader, once a winner, has resigned himself to mediocrity. It's a slump which he will never get out of because to do so, he'd have to go against the football principles he so strongly believes in.

It even worsens when you consider that a team is not required to come 1st or 2nd to realise massive profits annually. Therefore, the leader's bosses are kept happy even with lacklustre performances each season, as their snouts, firmly entrenched in the troughs, have more than enough to gouge down and stuff their fat bellies.

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Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.

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In the bigger picture, what does that mean?

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Originally Posted by Happy GHELmas

It won't be discussed or commented on because whether we finish top 4 or not, the problems with the club are too far gone and only dramatic success will see a change of mentality. No Arsenal fan is going to be jumping for joy if we (as expected) meander into the top 4.

As for those above us not performing to last seasons standard, we are over 10 points behind the top 2 so it's scant consolation.

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If we finish top 4, which we probably will because fortune seems to favour us when it comes to getting top 4 you can bet your house on the fact Wenger will be proud and use that as a stick to beat the fans with.

He'll basically think everything is perfect and nothing needs to change and that my friend is a depressing thought.

We're not in complete meltdown that's true, but even though we're relatively close to 3rd, our performances on the pitch and lack of squad depth is the reason why people are so concerned. We've got a huge January coming up, with games against City, Liverpool and Chelsea, and I don't think we have a good enough squad to cope with those games. So even though we're within distance of the top 4, after January we could very well be languishing in mid table.

The most pertinent observation is that we are AGAIN not looking like we will threaten the two manchesters for the title. We are a football club either for its fans or we are a fraud organisation. The fans who want Wenger to leave want him to go because he has NOT even shown that he wants to win or will learn from past mistakes and effect the changes needed to win. The club is not supposed to exist simply to keep Wenger happy and in coin. Every other manager in the EPL is under pressure either to win things, improve on last years performance, or stay in the league. Only Wenger it seems has no targets at all.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

If we finish top 4, which we probably will because fortune seems to favour us when it comes to getting top 4 you can bet your house on the fact Wenger will be proud and use that as a stick to beat the fans with.

He'll basically think everything is perfect and nothing needs to change and that my friend is a depressing thought.

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I'm sorry we ruined your weekend by winning.

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Originally Posted by GB.

I'm sorry we ruined your weekend by winning.

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Great contribution once again, keep up the good work :good:

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Originally Posted by Toronto Gooner

Let me preface what I say with the comment that I am not saying that the current situation is anything other than extremely disappointing and worrisome.

That being said, if Man City avoid losing tomorrow, not one of the teams I track for my seasons comparison will be even equal to their points total at this stage last season.

Also, it should be noted that Arsenal are only 5 points and 1 goal off 3rd spot. This will not be discussed or commented on by the media or any of the those Arsenal fans who want only to force Wenger and the board out of "their" Arsenal.

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I think this is because the overall level of quality in the EPL has been declining and it is pretty much heading in the opposite direction to the level of money pumped in to fund the product we now watch.

And the product is by and large boring, unwatchable dirge.

If we were paying the players of the past along the same lines the players of today earn, the likes of Vieira, Henry and Bergkamp could legitimately command £500k a week.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

If we finish top 4, which we probably will because fortune seems to favour us when it comes to getting top 4.

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:lol:

Funny how we're 'lucky' every single year.

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Originally Posted by Meh-ry Christmas

:lol:

Funny how we're 'lucky' every single year.

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What can I say, Wenger may not be the most competent but he sure is lucky! :lol:

League table never lies.
We've finished top 4 every year. That doesn't happen by luck.
Last year we finished 3rd, the only teams who finished above us were a team who bought the title and another who have pretty much the best manager ever.
But yeah, we were 'lucky' to have RvP (who Wenger bought and persisted with despite his injuries)
Whatever suits your agenda, fella.

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Originally Posted by Meh-ry Christmas

League table never lies.
We've finished top 4 every year. That doesn't happen by luck.
Last year we finished 3rd, the only teams who finished above us were a team who bought the title and another who have pretty much the best manager ever.
But yeah, we were 'lucky' to have RvP (who Wenger bought and persisted with despite his injuries)
Whatever suits your agenda, fella.

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Spot on, Chavs winning the Cl now that's luck if i ever saw any tbh. But its not Arsenal so i guess it was down to quality :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Meh-ry Christmas

League table never lies.
We've finished top 4 every year. That doesn't happen by luck.
Last year we finished 3rd, the only teams who finished above us were a team who bought the title and another who have pretty much the best manager ever.
But yeah, we were 'lucky' to have RvP (who Wenger bought and persisted with despite his injuries)
Whatever suits your agenda, fella.

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Spurs suffered from the crooknapp problems last season without question, I'd say we got lucky there, likewise with the food poisoining incident a while back.

As for RVP quality player, but we were lucky he stayed fit anyone can see that, he'd been a crock all his career (and this from a big fan of his), him staying fit was pot luck, just like with Diaby and Rosicky who haven't been able to.

He has stayed fit for a long time now, well over two years to be exact. In any case you wouldn't put our travails before last season to RVP being injured so often as 'bad luck' (a get out card) so I can't see what talking about 'luck' achieves.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

Spurs suffered from the crooknapp problems last season without question, I'd say we got lucky there, likewise with the food poisoining incident a while back.

As for RVP quality player, but we were lucky he stayed fit anyone can see that, he'd been a crock all his career (and this from a big fan of his), him staying fit was pot luck, just like with Diaby and Rosicky who haven't been able to.

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every team gets luck along the way, either in their games or with opponents suffering defeats because of luck. i'm sure there have been plenty of teams relegated on the last day that can blame luck too. there is no way to quantify it to determine if it balances out for teams but the point is, everyone suffers and benefits from it. we stumbled into third last season but over the course of 38 games, we deserved it.

wasn't RVP just unlucky with injuries? if not, then man utd are benefiting from his continued luck and cannot take full credit for performances so far this season.

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Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost of Christmas

He has stayed fit for a long time now, well over two years to be exact. In any case you wouldn't put our travails before last season to RVP being injured so often as 'bad luck' (a get out card) so I can't see what talking about 'luck' achieves.

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Yes that's true but before last season he hadn't really managed to stay fit for any significant amount of time (wasn't he injured for half a season the season before that?).

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

Spurs suffered from the crooknapp problems last season without question, I'd say we got lucky there, likewise with the food poisoining incident a while back.

As for RVP quality player, but we were lucky he stayed fit anyone can see that, he'd been a crock all his career (and this from a big fan of his), him staying fit was pot luck, just like with Diaby and Rosicky who haven't been able to.

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:lol:

Dear Lord, you really are reaching.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

Yes that's true but before last season he hadn't really managed to stay fit for any significant amount of time (wasn't he injured for half a season the season before that?).

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He was indeed. However he hasn't broken down for Man Utd so whatever change he made in his (personal physio) training, it has been a successful one. Man Utd's medical staff are as bad as ours.

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Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz

every team gets luck along the way, either in their games or with opponents suffering defeats because of luck. i'm sure there have been plenty of teams relegated on the last day that can blame luck too. there is no way to quantify it to determine if it balances out for teams but the point is, everyone suffers and benefits from it. we stumbled into third last season but over the course of 38 games, we deserved it.

wasn't RVP just unlucky with injuries? if not, then man utd are benefiting from his continued luck and cannot take full credit for performances so far this season.

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Last season I really think had the Redknapp problems and the Redknapp for England things not come about they'd have been above us, to tall intent and purposes they had a better team...RVP was our saving grace I guess.

Some other clubs just don't have the squads to compete, we have due to our larger finances, they may not all be top quality but we have more quality to cope with the number of games for sure.

RVP injuries couldn't just be put down to back luck when he had so many of them, likewise Rosicky, Diaby, King etc.....these players just don't seem to be built for the game, either that or it's poor treatment of injuries (also very possible).

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Originally Posted by Meh-ry Christmas

:lol:

Dear Lord, you really are reaching.

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The Lord can't hear you, he's busy helping Wenger to 4th place at the moment!

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Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost of Christmas

He was indeed. However he hasn't broken down for Man Utd so whatever change he made in his (personal physio) training, it has been a successful one. Man Utd's medical staff are as bad as ours.

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I don't disagree, however I still think relying on him last season was a massive gamble and it was pot luck as to whether he was going to stay fit or not, noone in their right minds could have envisaged him not getting injured for the whole season, that would be like needing to catch a plane and relying on someone who's always very late to drop you at the airport on time, it could happen but you wouldn't bet your house on it and logic would suggest it would be better to ask someone else or book a taxi.

If we finished lower than 4th you'd say the league table never lies.
We did so you dismiss it as luck.
Anything but give the club or Wenger any credit I guess.

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Originally Posted by Meh-ry Christmas

If we finished lower than 4th you'd say the league table never lies.
We did so you dismiss it as luck.
Anything but give the club or Wenger any credit I guess.

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I don't use that terminology so no :lol:

Wenger doesn't deserve credit in my book because as I've said before I think he's doing an awful job, he got enough credit in the days we were winning, the credit has run out now though.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

Last season I really think had the Redknapp problems and the Redknapp for England things not come about they'd have been above us, to tall intent and purposes they had a better team...RVP was our saving grace I guess.

Some other clubs just don't have the squads to compete, we have due to our larger finances, they may not all be top quality but we have more quality to cope with the number of games for sure.

RVP injuries couldn't just be put down to back luck when he had so many of them, likewise Rosicky, Diaby, King etc.....these players just don't seem to be built for the game, either that or it's poor treatment of injuries (also very possible).

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yeah he was our saving grace but that isn't down to luck, the passes to him and his finishes weren't lucky. i'm not sure why you are isolating this argument as you are. city, utd and chelsea all have healthy doses of luck across the season, it is worth imagining what their seasons could be like if they were afforded no luck at all. there is no way you can separate those moments from the those that are down to ability. it is far too intricate; luck and ability almost go hand in hand sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

I don't disagree, however I still think relying on him last season was a massive gamble and it was pot luck as to whether he was going to stay fit or not, noone in their right minds could have envisaged him not getting injured for the whole season, that would be like needing to catch a plane and relying on someone who's always very late to drop you at the airport on time, it could happen but you wouldn't bet your house on it and logic would suggest it would be better to ask someone else or book a taxi.

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You'd trust that person if they've made the effort and changes to think about the best way to achieve what they want to achieve, unlike before when they were doing the same things again and again.

Regardless of stretching an analogy to bursting point, what you're forgetting about RVP is that they were rarely wear and tear injuries; they were usually lengthy impact injuries. Unlike Diaby who can't have any hamstrings left and you can't really avoid using your hamstrings in football.

If football is so easily determined by 'luck' and 'unluck' then what's the point of ever casting judgement on anyone or anything if that is all it comes down to?

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Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz

yeah he was our saving grace but that isn't down to luck, the passes to him and his finishes weren't lucky. i'm not sure why you are isolating this argument as you are. city, utd and chelsea all have healthy doses of luck across the season, it is worth imagining what their seasons could be like if they were afforded no luck at all. there is no way you can separate those moments from the those that are down to ability. it is far too intricate; luck and ability almost go hand in hand sometimes.

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The Spurs problems were though, those don't happen in a normal season.

The teams you mention have top quality players, players of that quality will always give you a much better chance of winning, all teams do get luck however the better players you have the less you rely on it. In the days we had top players we still had lucky moments, but rarely did we need them as we'd generally win games on merit before luck played a part.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

The Lord can't hear you, he's busy helping Wenger to 4th place at the moment!

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The funny thing about this is that you've successfully destroyed your own argument by equating one nebulous, non-existent, non-quantifiable entity ('luck') to another ('God').

You should incorporate some talk about magic, sorcery, voodoo and Uri Gellerism into further discussions to win more internet battles.

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Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost of Christmas

You'd trust that person if they've made the effort and changes to think about the best way to achieve what they want to achieve, unlike before when they were doing the same things again and again.

Regardless of stretching an analogy to bursting point, what you're forgetting about RVP is that they were rarely wear and tear injuries; they were usually lengthy impact injuries. Unlike Diaby who can't have any hamstrings left and you can't really avoid using your hamstrings in football.

If football is so easily determined by 'luck' and 'unluck' then what's the point of ever casting judgement on anyone or anything if that is all it comes down to?

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I've known people like this and no I wouldn't, someone has to prove they've changed.

Football isn't all about luck, quality of players and team tactics/ethic etc come into it, from what I can see we lack quality, the tactics are poor and the team has a poor work ethic and mentality...this doesn't correspond to the traits top teams have.

I can accept a top team with top players doing well because they have top players and perhaps a manager who coaches them well, uses tactics effectively and gets them drilled in the art of whatever position it is they play in, none of this seems to apply to us or Wenger, certainly not in the last few years.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

The Spurs problems were though, those don't happen in a normal season.

The teams you mention have top quality players, players of that quality will always give you a much better chance of winning, all teams do get luck however the better players you have the less you rely on it. In the days we had top players we still had lucky moments, but rarely did we need them as we'd generally win games on merit before luck played a part.

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luck doesn't come down to purely in-house issues but what happens in a game, through bad decisions from oppositions to referee decisions. the spurs situation was lucky but then where do you stop, how do you determine what exactly comes down to luck or not? we were not the only beneficiaries of tottenham's slump, so the teams that beat them also got a helping hand. then can you determine if that 'luck' meant winning a game, gaining confidence and perhaps winning the next one etc? how much credit do we give to those teams too? in fact, in every tackle players are afforded luck that it did not injure them. it just goes on and on if you want to analyse things in that way.

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Originally Posted by Master Splinter

The funny thing about this is that you've successfully destroyed your own argument by equating one nebulous, non-existent, non-quantifiable entity ('luck') to another ('God').

You should incorporate some talk about magic, sorcery, voodoo and Uri Gellerism into further discussions to win more internet battles.

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I was going to but I've lost my voodoo doll, all my spoons are in the dishwasher and I broke my magic wand when Swansea scored the 2nd against us last week. My magic ball works but it needs a clean and I'm out of window cleaner so I can't see what's going on.

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Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz

luck doesn't come down to purely in-house issues but what happens in a game, through bad decisions from oppositions to referee decisions. the spurs situation was lucky but then where do you stop, how do you determine what exactly comes down to luck or not? we were not the only beneficiaries of tottenham's slump, so the teams that beat them also got a helping hand. then can you determine if that 'luck' meant winning a game, gaining confidence and perhaps winning the next one etc? how much credit do we give to those teams too? in fact, in every tackle players are afforded luck that it did not injure them. it just goes on and on if you want to analyse things in that way.

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Luck in games evens itself out over a season as I've always said, we got lucky today and might get unlucky next week...some people go off on one when we get bad decisions but that happens and in a different week the opposite happens......but stuff off the field (i.e what happened to Spurs) isn't really a normal football situation so that is a lucky scenario for the clubs battling with them for 3rd/4th.

Yes the teams that beat them also got a helping hand, but we were probably the best of the rest, certainly in terms of squad depth after Spurs so naturally we ended up above them.

As for injuries, there's luck involved obviously, but some players are always injured, I wouldn't put this down to bad luck, that's just normality, it would be abnormal for Diaby and Rosicky to stay fit all season and they never have.

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Originally Posted by Merry Chrizimas

I've known people like this and no I wouldn't, someone has to prove they've changed.

Football isn't all about luck, quality of players and team tactics/ethic etc come into it, from what I can see we lack quality, the tactics are poor and the team has a poor work ethic and mentality...this doesn't correspond to the traits top teams have.

I can accept a top team with top players doing well because they have top players and perhaps a manager who coaches them well, uses tactics effectively and gets them drilled in the art of whatever position it is they play in, none of this seems to apply to us or Wenger, certainly not in the last few years.

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Nine months would be enough to indicate a change has been made, I would imagine. Anyway you're talking about someone being unreliable because of their fault as a character (in your analogy, tardiness) but in RVP's case we're talking about being unfortunate in that previous unreliability (injuries).

Everyone can argue forever and a day about how other teams have benefitted from luck. We were lucky in 97/98 when Man Utd collapsed, they were lucky in 02/03 when we collapsed. And so on and so forth.

Winning seven games in a row when we did last season cannot be put down to luck, not when you consider the teams we beat in that run. You just can't fluke seven wins in a row, a manager must be doing something right even if it's only to a level of 3rd/4th rather than 1st/2nd.

can you show how luck 'evens itself out' accurately, or is it just and easy phrase to throw out there? because, no offence, i think that is nonsense.

doesn't

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but we were probably the best of the rest, certainly in terms of squad depth after Spurs so naturally we ended up above them.

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contradict your assertion that we were lucky to get top four last season?

Luck.......is this what Wengerism is now distilled to?. We were not the 3rd best team last season. The 3rd best team (Chelsea) had a perfect storm that they brought about themselves with manager mismanagement by the owner. The 4th best team...(Tiny Totts) keelhauled themselves (as usual) and we. 5/6th best, stumbled in on the last day. Where we got lucky was having an opposition keeper on the final day who played as if Wenger had handed him a sackful of 50 pound notes the night before. Does any one remember the absolutely diabolical run we were on right after overtaking the spuds I think 5 defeats in 8, we did everything possible to throw it away.

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Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz

can you show how luck 'evens itself out' accurately, or is it just and easy phrase to throw out there? because, no offence, i think that is nonsense.

doesn't
That's impossible to do, but you have to accept some decisions go for you and some against you, today we had two in our favour which led to goals, I'm sure we've had 2 already this season that have gone against us. It swings in roundabouts, you win some and you lose some.


contradict your assertion that we were lucky to get top four last season?

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Last season I meant we were lucky to get above Spurs (Chelsea were awful until Di Matteo took over), so I should have said lucky to get 3rd.

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Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost of Christmas

Nine months would be enough to indicate a change has been made, I would imagine. Anyway you're talking about someone being unreliable because of their fault as a character (in your analogy, tardiness) but in RVP's case we're talking about being unfortunate in that previous unreliability (injuries).

Everyone can argue forever and a day about how other teams have benefitted from luck. We were lucky in 97/98 when Man Utd collapsed, they were lucky in 02/03 when we collapsed. And so on and so forth.

Winning seven games in a row when we did last season cannot be put down to luck, not when you consider the teams we beat in that run. You just can't fluke seven wins in a row, a manager must be doing something right even if it's only to a level of 3rd/4th rather than 1st/2nd.

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Before last season I don't remember him being fit for 9 months?

I genuinely though we were awful last season, as someone mentioned even after going above Spurs we kept dropping points and somehow none of the other teams managed to take advantage.