Has Rogers enjoyed a perfect storm?

First - I want Liverpool to win the league, and Rogers has made me envious of his management skills as against our conservative manager.

No-one can doubt that Rogers has benefitted from no European football; Suarez staying against the odds, and injuries that his small squad has been able to ride - not to mention exploiting the rare weak spots of Manure, the Chavs and Citeh in a way that we have abjectly failed to do.

But I wonder whether Rogers' most potent fortune has been lack of expectation. They finished 7th last year - on the type of form which would probably have seen Liverpool 5th in this season's conditions - even without a step change. Has this allowed him the freedom to experiment with new formations and young players - which may not have been there had he (like us) had more to aim for than just top four?

Same here, I'd much rather Liverpool win it if we can't.

I'm not completely sold Rodgers though, as some already are - nowhere near enough evidence in place yet. All the things you point out have gone in his favour, though he had to take advantage rather than waste it, and he has so it's not a criticism. But his defence is still woeful and the last couple of games have shown what could happen if key injuries cropped up or the strikers lost form. I know they won both matches, but the extremes evident over the course of 180 minutes suggest things could go wrong just as quickly as they have gone right this season. Summer is just as important for them as it is for us.

Most likely. Everything's worked out perfectly for them: Chelsea, Citeh and Us not being ready for it and suffering abject runs in form, no European football to worry about, no long term injuries to any of their potent attacking quintet and, something that gets overlooked, because of their league positions the last few season, opposition teams not being as scared initally to play football against them and not as forthcoming to employ "park the bus" tactics. Things that hopefully they won't have next season.

However history won't remember any of this and instead will have them crowned as champions of the 13/14 and to be honest they deserve it fully. Despite all the favourable outcomes they've had, they've also had some negative challenges to overcome such as not being able to attract the same calibre of players that the CL teams can and not having the same finances as us.

Rodgers should get the manager of the year award and Suarez player of the year. I just hope both of them get poached by others team before next season. There's talk about Rodgers going to Barca - hope that comes true.

Of course things have gone in their favour but that's usually the case when you're at the top. I didn't see anyone predicting Liverpool to win the league at the start of the season by virtue of all these bullet points people have quickly started to attach to them now they're likely to do it.

They've been great and Rodgers has done a brilliant job. Things will be different for them next season undoubtedly, but I still see what they've done as damning for us - even if it does turn out to be a fluke.

Irks somewhat when their team is comprised of players Wenger himself could have signed......and yes even Suarez...... and even the much maligned and one time Arsenal player, Kolo Toure!

He could have easily have signed Sturridge, Sterling, Suarez, Coutinho....pretty much any number of them apart from Gerrard, so Rodgers does deserve credit. He doesn't have to be hailed as a genius but credit nonetheless is due. Even some of their better players of past like Alonso, Wenger could have signed if you believe reports about the 4million odd discrepancy between our value and the selling clubs.

Marc Overmars' point is an excellent one.

I'm not sure I really get the point that rivals haven't been ready. Obviously United are shit this season, but compared to last season everyone is doing better than they were in terms of points.

The lack of European football I can agree with. That has no doubt helped us, but equally we made our squad on the basis that we didn't have those extra games. The likes of Borini, Suso, Assaidi, Ilori, Robinson, Wisdom probably wouldn't have been loaned out and our transfers would surely have been different too. Just as this summer we will no doubt buy accordingly, hopefully with a bit more freedom in terms of wages and attracting them in the first place. Hopefully that will include a DM and full backs.

And for the long injuries we've avoided in attack, we've had them in defence. You could say that's just as important, since a solid defence is based just as much on having a settled unit. Enrique has been out most of the season, Johnson was out for a while, Agger is made of glass and Sakho was out for a long period too. Only Skrtel has been a constant and he's phenomenally inconsistent. Hence relying on Cissokho, Toure and Flanagan, who has been a bit of a revelation.
It's away from home where our defence, and performances, have been pretty terrible.

Next season we probably won't be as we were this season. We probably will fin it far tougher with European football. We might well have more injuries than this season. But all of this season people were convinced we would barely make top 4, then it was that we didn't have the squad to cope during a season, then it was that we might not have the mentality to keep going, then it was that we can't beat the top teams, then it was that we were a one man team, then it was that we wouldn't keep on scoring, then it was that we would bottle it.

It's odd that everyone [as in not just gw] claims we deserve to be where we are, the proceed to rattle off a bunch of reasons why we don't.

I don't even care if this is an anomaly. Compared to the shite of the last few years I'll take it.

And of course, nothing has been won yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Borini Is Boss

I'm not sure I really get the point that rivals haven't been ready. Obviously United are shit this season, but compared to last season everyone is doing better than they were in terms of points.

The lack of European football I can agree with. That has no doubt helped us, but equally we made our squad on the basis that we didn't have those extra games. The likes of Borini, Suso, Assaidi, Ilori, Robinson, Wisdom probably wouldn't have been loaned out and our transfers would surely have been different too. Just as this summer we will no doubt buy accordingly, hopefully with a bit more freedom in terms of wages and attracting them in the first place. Hopefully that will include a DM and full backs.

And for the long injuries we've avoided in attack, we've had them in defence. You could say that's just as important, since a solid defence is based just as much on having a settled unit. Enrique has been out most of the season, Johnson was out for a while, Agger is made of glass and Sakho was out for a long period too. Only Skrtel has been a constant and he's phenomenally inconsistent. Hence relying on Cissokho, Toure and Flanagan, who has been a bit of a revelation.
It's away from home where our defence, and performances, have been pretty terrible.

Next season we probably won't be as we were this season. We probably will fin it far tougher with European football. We might well have more injuries than this season. But all of this season people were convinced we would barely make top 4, then it was that we didn't have the squad to cope during a season, then it was that we might not have the mentality to keep going, then it was that we can't beat the top teams, then it was that we were a one man team, then it was that we wouldn't keep on scoring, then it was that we would bottle it.

It's odd that everyone [as in not just gw] claims we deserve to be where we are, the proceed to rattle off a bunch of reasons why we don't.

I don't even care if this is an anomaly. Compared to the shite of the last few years I'll take it.

And of course, nothing has been won yet.

---

I still think it's entirely reasonable to cite areas where Liverpool have had a favourable ride, just as much as we lay into Wenger for his shortcomings, as in the most part, it's true. That's not to take anything away from them or Rogers.

I mean, what are you supposed to do in his position? Go with it, and use every means at your disposal to win the bloody thing, or request a handicap?

I happen to think they've been brilliant to watch, and if they do win it, they will have deserved to. No doubt about it.

It says just as much about the other teams failures, in many differing ways.

You still have to hold your nerve, and Rogers has been able to do that with his team better than anybody else. In many ways, that means a great deal more than just the relative ability of teams, as has been shown over the last month/s.

The gypo and chav in transition stuff is total nonsense. They make the concious decision to sack their managers every 5 minutes so it's not at all legitimate to then offer this lack of stability as a reason why another team finishes above them. That would be the same as saying they aren't top because they shot all their players. Real reason is because both these clubs are a laughing stock and not proper football clubs. Fair enough, Utd have been Moyes'd but I wonder if even Fergie could have propped up that bunch of average joes for another season? As for us - we're always in transition because we have, or had, a policy of selling everything that wasn't nailed down. And we would have sold the nailed down stuff too but we were too cheap to buy a claw hammer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LDG

I still think it's entirely reasonable to cite areas where Liverpool have had a favourable ride, just as much as we lay into Wenger for his shortcomings, as in the most part, it's true. That's not to take anything away from them or Rogers.

I mean, what are you supposed to do in his position? Go with it, and use every means at your disposal to win the bloody thing, or request a handicap?

I happen to think they've been brilliant to watch, and if they do win it, they will have deserved to. No doubt about it.

It says just as much about the other teams failures, in many differing ways.

You still have to hold your nerve, and Rogers has been able to do that with his team better than anybody else. In many ways, that means a great deal more than just the relative ability of teams, as has been shown over the last month/s.

---

Of course. We've had our fair share of luck just as we've had things go against us. Not a coincidence that the lucky teams tend to be the ones at the top though. As if we're the only team to have had luck go their way. If you ignore the ones who see us as the bestest westest, "win it for Gerrard" etc that literally the only reason we are where we are is because of Suarez, penalties and luck. Lucky penalties. Lucky penalties from Suarez dives. And apart from those, we have a terrible squad and have just happened to stumble into a title race with a front line we just happened to come across, playing football we just happened to play. Just like with the injuries argument. And then it turns out that we actually have had injuries, the likes of Chelsea have had even fewer and that what is actually meant is "Suarez hasn't been injured... all of those who were injured? crap anyway". Well if you look throughout his career it doesn't look like he's missed many games through injury at all so it's not as if we lucked out on that. And though I grant you this is a very cursory glance at wikipedia, it doesn't look as if Henry missed many league games for you either.

I think at least some of it is down to people thinking we have come from nowhere and there is a sense of disbelief that we could possibly challenge. And that if we can do it, why haven't [insert team] do it too? And if that team can't do it, then there must be some other reason why Liverpool have. Things not in their control.

I don't think Rodgers is some sort of genius. I don't think anyone does yet. Some of his ramblings are annoying and middle management-y but what he's done hasn't been complicated. As much as it is down to preparation and hard work, it's nothing that hasn't been done before. And it's totally fair that he (and we) should be viewed over a longer period, and I'm sure he'd agree with that. In between talking about focus groups. I'm not blind, I know we aren't the greatest team ever and we have some pretty big deficiencies but at the same time we've won something like 11 on the bounce and haven't lost since our wheels apparently came off in the games just after Christmas. Maybe those terrible, awful players like Henderson and Johnson aren't as bad as people think.

And yes I will say it again just so I don't get ahead of myself and jinx it all. Nothing won yet.

Fair play.

I really don't mean to take anything away from them. Seriously. And it's not so much the injuries for me, as the fewer amount of games, meaning more rest.

The match that made me look again, was vs City on boxing day, where the way you lot played made me little bit jealous. You really fucked them up, and I think that was the springboard....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Borini Is Boss

then it was that we were a one man team.

---

Do you think you'd be where you are were it not for Suarez?

Best player in being most influential on the team shocker!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Best player in being most influential on the team shocker!

---

He's not just a good player, he's one of the best in the world right now.
I hope Liverpool win the league and I think they will, and you don't win the league by luck.
But there's no way they'd be anywhere near the title without Suarez, I think his influence in that side is far bigger than the best player of any other PL team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

Do you think you'd be where you are were it not for Suarez?

---

Of course not. But that's not the same as being a one man team. Would we be scrabbling for 4th this season without him? Quite possibly, maybe even lower. But that's what the best players do, propel you that extra mile. It's what they've always done.

Would Barca have been as good without Messi? Doubtful. Madrid Ronaldo. Arsenal Henry. Maradona. Cruyff. Best. Pele.

Would United have won it 2008 without Ronaldo? Without Van Persie last season? Would Chelsea be second without Hazard? Had Ramsey kept up his great form and stayed fit, that alone may have got you the extra few points to be challenging for the title as well. A stretch, but not totally ridiculous given what he adds to your play. It doesn't mean you would have been a one man team.

Suarez may well have been top scorer last season before Ivanovic rudely got in the way of his lunch. We still finished 7th. In the 10 games he missed for that we won 6, drew 3 and lost 1. We would find it far harder without him over a season no doubt, but we wouldn't just fall apart.

Before Suarez it was Torres. Before Torres it was Gerrard. Before Gerrard it was Owen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Best player in being most influential on the team shocker!

---

:lol: Exactly such a lame excuse from people, top teams have top players and often have one who makes that difference, just look at Barca and Messi.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Özim

:lol: Exactly such a lame excuse from people, top teams have top players and often have one who makes that difference, just look at Barca and Messi.

---

:gp:

He's a brilliant manager tactically and has implemented an effective system, getting the best out of his players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Borini Is Boss

Of course not. But that's not the same as being a one man team. Would we be scrabbling for 4th this season without him? Quite possibly, maybe even lower. But that's what the best players do, propel you that extra mile. It's what they've always done.

Would Barca have been as good without Messi? Doubtful. Madrid Ronaldo. Arsenal Henry. Maradona. Cruyff. Best. Pele.

Would United have won it 2008 without Ronaldo? Without Van Persie last season? Would Chelsea be second without Hazard? Had Ramsey kept up his great form and stayed fit, that alone may have got you the extra few points to be challenging for the title as well. A stretch, but not totally ridiculous given what he adds to your play. It doesn't mean you would have been a one man team.

Suarez may well have been top scorer last season before Ivanovic rudely got in the way of his lunch. We still finished 7th. In the 10 games he missed for that we won 6, drew 3 and lost 1. We would find it far harder without him over a season no doubt, but we wouldn't just fall apart.

Before Suarez it was Torres. Before Torres it was Gerrard. Before Gerrard it was Owen.

---

All good points. Only thing I'd add is you are a one man team.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Borini Is Boss

I'm not sure I really get the point that rivals haven't been ready. Obviously United are shit this season, but compared to last season everyone is doing better than they were in terms of points.

The lack of European football I can agree with. That has no doubt helped us, but equally we made our squad on the basis that we didn't have those extra games. The likes of Borini, Suso, Assaidi, Ilori, Robinson, Wisdom probably wouldn't have been loaned out and our transfers would surely have been different too. Just as this summer we will no doubt buy accordingly, hopefully with a bit more freedom in terms of wages and attracting them in the first place. Hopefully that will include a DM and full backs.

And for the long injuries we've avoided in attack, we've had them in defence. You could say that's just as important, since a solid defence is based just as much on having a settled unit. Enrique has been out most of the season, Johnson was out for a while, Agger is made of glass and Sakho was out for a long period too. Only Skrtel has been a constant and he's phenomenally inconsistent. Hence relying on Cissokho, Toure and Flanagan, who has been a bit of a revelation.
It's away from home where our defence, and performances, have been pretty terrible.

Next season we probably won't be as we were this season. We probably will fin it far tougher with European football. We might well have more injuries than this season. But all of this season people were convinced we would barely make top 4, then it was that we didn't have the squad to cope during a season, then it was that we might not have the mentality to keep going, then it was that we can't beat the top teams, then it was that we were a one man team, then it was that we wouldn't keep on scoring, then it was that we would bottle it.

It's odd that everyone [as in not just gw] claims we deserve to be where we are, the proceed to rattle off a bunch of reasons why we don't.

I don't even care if this is an anomaly. Compared to the shite of the last few years I'll take it.

And of course, nothing has been won yet.

---

Good addition to the thread. As for the apparent backhanded praise for your team - its not so much that. We all want you to win the league. But to see a team that we can't dismiss as a billionaire plaything succeed when we are living groundhog day is tough...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

First - I want Liverpool to win the league, and Rogers has made me envious of his management skills as against our conservative manager.

No-one can doubt that Rogers has benefitted from no European football; Suarez staying against the odds, and injuries that his small squad has been able to ride - not to mention exploiting the rare weak spots of Manure, the Chavs and Citeh in a way that we have abjectly failed to do.

But I wonder whether Rogers' most potent fortune has been lack of expectation. They finished 7th last year - on the type of form which would probably have seen Liverpool 5th in this season's conditions - even without a step change. Has this allowed him the freedom to experiment with new formations and young players - which may not have been there had he (like us) had more to aim for than just top four?

---

I personally feel Rodgers has been slowly building their team in the way he wants coupled with the fact that a number of his players have improved dramatically at the same time. Suarez was already world class, it's the like of Sturridge, Henderson, Sterling, Lucas and Coutinho that have massively improved/developed. Add that to the fact he has bought astutely with the likes of Sahko and Mignolet adding that extra bit of quality, Gerrard has also blossomed in the DM role. Rodgers has made smart strategic decisions in regards to his football team and it has worked.

Everything has clicked for Liverpool at the right time and Rodgers has built on their strengths, which is a pacey attacking team. But Liverpool are rightfully top because they have outperfomed Chelsea and Man City this season.

Whilst Liverpool may not retain the title assuming they win it, they are here to stay now, they have a solid core made up of very good young players, I have no doubt they will spend big to improve what is already a very good team.

Rodgers IMO, is a very good young manager, he's not an elite manager yet because reputations like that are built over time.

If it helps Borini, I don't want Liverpool to win the league.

Yes they've played some great football and yes the deserve to win the league. However I would much rather Chelsea or City won it.

Why? Because ultimately it shows that our belief that we have been unable to compete against the money of City and Chelsea is false. We could have competed but we've consistently fallen short :fury:

Then of course we come to the fact that Liverpool screwed us over with Suarez. We activated his release clause and you chose to ignore it. Henry even admitted that in public and somehow you got away with it! We missed out on Higuan because we dropped our interest in him because we thought we had signed Suarez.

I can only imagine how good we would have been had Suarez signed for us.

Quote:

---

Why? Because ultimately it shows that our belief that we have been unable to compete against the money of City and Chelsea is false. We could have competed but we've consistently fallen short

---

If Liverpool stay competitive at the top and grab a couple more (haven't won it yet) titles over the next 5 seasons then I think the point has been made. But if this is a one-off, it ends up making the opposite point, you have to build patiently to sustain the challenge. There have been a couple of seasons where a bit more luck or a few less injuries or a ball bouncing this way instead of that might have seen us grab a title too. But we haven't had the squad over the recent years that could maintain that level.

We'll see. I'm wouldn't be pissed at all if Liverpool showed you could get the better of the comedy cash dopers on a consistent basis. In fact it would be hilarious and show those jokers up in the harshest possible way. It wouldn't be the same as a Southampton winning it, because Liverpool have dumped a lot of cash too, but they are not on the money no object, buy your glory here level that the chavs and the gypos occupy.

They do need to sustain it IMO. Last time they came this close to the title they finished on 86 points (they can get a maximum of 89 this year), the following year they finished 7th with 63.
If they sustain this level then I agree the point has been made but that remains to be seen.

It depends what you mean by sustain; whether it be in a title race every year or "just" finishing in the top 4 again. I'd still be happy with the latter, personally, even if it wouldn't be as impressive a feat. There is something about this season which does feel like a "now or never" opportunity in that if we screw it up it will set us back another few years. Then again that will have been said before. What does work in our favour is that we have a very young team and squad which would theoretically get better with time. Theoretically.

We will be embarking on the stadium renovation, which apparently won't have an effect on transfer dealings but that remains to be seen. Then you have the enigma of Suarez, who could stay here for another few years or he could turn out to be a serial killer. Neither would really shock me anymore. It would be nigh-on impossible to keep him if Madrid cam calling.... but there's actually no real evidence they want him. Or ever want him. It's never been anything more than press bollocks.
As for the release clause, I'm still inclined to side with the way the Gordon Taylor explained it in that it was a good faith clause which obligated us to do nothing.

For the record though, I'm not really offended [for want of a better word] if people did think we were lucky or whatever. It is a rival board after all.

Also; won nothing yet. I'm going to keep saying that.

Quote:

---

which apparently won't have an effect on transfer dealings

---

Rings a bell.