Top 4 head to head

1	Chelsea	6	5	1	0	4	1	13	2	+11	16	2.67
2	Manchester City	6	2	1	3	0	1	12	11	+1	7	1.17
3	Liverpool	6	2	0	4	0	2	10	11	-1	6	1.00
4	Arsenal	6	1	2	3	2	2	7	18	-11	5	0.83

Interesting. Chelsea miles ahead, and yet they're still relying on other teams slipping to win the league.
And while we're 'bottom' of the mini-league it's only a couple of points in it.
For all Liverpool's brilliance at times this year they've still lost 4 of the 6 head to heads.

I'm not sure what point I'm making really, I guess it's that the '6 pointers', while important, aren't the be all and end all.

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Originally Posted by Letters

1	Chelsea	6	5	1	0	4	1	13	2	+11	16	2.67
2	Manchester City	6	2	1	3	0	1	12	11	+1	7	1.17
3	Liverpool	6	2	0	4	0	2	10	11	-1	6	1.00
4	Arsenal	6	1	2	3	2	2	7	18	-11	5	0.83

Interesting. Chelsea miles ahead, and yet they're still relying on other teams slipping to win the league.
And while we're 'bottom' of the mini-league it's only a couple of points in it.
For all Liverpool's brilliance at times this year they've still lost 4 of the 6 head to heads.

I'm not sure what point I'm making really, I guess it's that the '6 pointers', while important, aren't the be all and end all.

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Your point would make sense if we weren't out of the title race whilst all the other teams were. We've been out of the title race for a while now in fact, maybe not mathematically bu realistically.

It became mathematically impossible for us to win the league a week or two ago.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Your point would make sense if we weren't out of the title race whilst all the other teams were.

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:lol: That's pretty much exactly why the point makes sense. Liverpool are more likely to win it than Chelsea, Chelsea have got excellent results in the 6 pointers but dropped silly points elsewhere, Liverpool have poor results in those games - only getting one more point than us over the season - but have done the business elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Letters

1	Chelsea	6	5	1	0	4	1	13	2	+11	16	2.67
2	Manchester City	6	2	1	3	0	1	12	11	+1	7	1.17
3	Liverpool	6	2	0	4	0	2	10	11	-1	6	1.00
4	Arsenal	6	1	2	3	2	2	7	18	-11	5	0.83

Interesting. Chelsea miles ahead, and yet they're still relying on other teams slipping to win the league.
And while we're 'bottom' of the mini-league it's only a couple of points in it.
For all Liverpool's brilliance at times this year they've still lost 4 of the 6 head to heads.

I'm not sure what point I'm making really, I guess it's that the '6 pointers', while important, aren't the be all and end all.

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Looks like it's going to go down to Goal difference this year, if City and it's a big IF, win at Everton next Saturday then I fancy them to take the title, if not Liverpool should do it.

Whilst there are only a couple of points in it regarding us being bottom of the mini league it's the manner of the defeats, we got our arses whipped against the other 3, the Chelsea and Liverpool away games were over after 15 minutes. I think if we would of lost these games 1-0 or 2-0 then the calling of "Wenger's head" and the "collapse" type threads wouldn't even exist.

I think the problem for us has been the adverse mental effect of consistently not winning these games and also the manner we've lost them in.

You don't have to win them but I'd say you have a hell of a lot more to gain if you do. That table shows they aren't the be all and end all, however we're bottom of that and also happen to be the only ones not involved in the title race.

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Originally Posted by Letters

:lol: That's pretty much exactly why the point makes sense. Liverpool are more likely to win it than Chelsea, Chelsea have got excellent results in the 6 pointers but dropped silly points elsewhere, Liverpool have poor results in those games - only getting one more point than us over the season - but have done the business elsewhere.

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Liverpool have got two wins however two big wins in the run in, the most important time to get them, which make all the difference, in the run in we've collapsed and got thrashed.

The context of the defeats is important, as is the manner and the manner of ours has been, let's be honest, shameful.

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Originally Posted by selassie

Whilst there are only a couple of points in it regarding us being bottom of the mini league it's the manner of the defeats.

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Agree with that.

I'm not arguing these games aren't important but it's received wisdom that you can't do poorly in these games and win the title and while it makes it harder Liverpool are still top having performed very poorly in these games.

I think we've been slightly unlucky in the way the games have fallen. We had two bitchy runs where we had to play 3 or 4 big games on the trot. My point being that if you cock one up, the pressure builds and your subsequent games suffer.

But it seems pretty clear, that our chances of winning the league, or at least challenging, hangs on the 6 pointers against our "rivals".

Quite simply, we were poor against all three away from home. Tactically naive, gutless and outplayed.

The margins are very fine, just 1 more win for us against any of those sides would see us currently involved in the mix. It's obviously not an exact Science though.

I'd also question poor games against United and Everton if we want to look at our performances against the better sides overall. Though Spurs were nice enough to give us 6 points which is good.

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Originally Posted by LDG

Quite simply, we were poor against all three away from home. Tactically naive, gutless and outplayed.

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I thought we played well up at City and had the reffing been competent it would have been closer.
In the other games though we were hopeless, you can chalk one up as 'one of those days' but for it to happen again really isn't good enough.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Agree with that.

I'm not arguing these games aren't important but it's received wisdom that you can't do poorly in these games and win the title and while it makes it harder Liverpool are still top having performed very poorly in these games.

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I agree with your point too. IIRC, Man Utd's record last season in the top 4 head to heads was pretty poor. Despite my open criticism of Wenger, I honestly don't think we are that far away. What disheartens me though is that I don't think we will do what we need to do to bridge the gap.

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Originally Posted by Letters

1	Chelsea	6	5	1	0	4	1	13	2	+11	16	2.67
2	Manchester City	6	2	1	3	0	1	12	11	+1	7	1.17
3	Liverpool	6	2	0	4	0	2	10	11	-1	6	1.00
4	Arsenal	6	1	2	3	2	2	7	18	-11	5	0.83

Interesting. Chelsea miles ahead, and yet they're still relying on other teams slipping to win the league.
And while we're 'bottom' of the mini-league it's only a couple of points in it.
For all Liverpool's brilliance at times this year they've still lost 4 of the 6 head to heads.

I'm not sure what point I'm making really, I guess it's that the '6 pointers', while important, aren't the be all and end all.

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I think the point you are trying to make is maureen is a whiny bitch who will say anything to try to distract from his mega-fuckups and bottling. In which case:

:gp:

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Originally Posted by Letters

I thought we played well up at City and had the reffing been competent it would have been closer.
In the other games though we were hopeless, you can chalk one up as 'one of those days' but for it to happen again really isn't good enough.

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We were hopeless against Liverpool and Everton, fast asleep and deservedly trounced.

Against the gypos the officials were bent and modified the score, we deserved at least a draw in that one, both defences were shite and we were cutting the up just as easily as they were doing it to us. Liverpool did the same to them a couple of weeks back - they are overhyped shit, especially Kompany who has made more mistakes this year than Kolo. They may buy their way to a title because they have 3 multi million quid players for every position so they aren't affected by injuries and suspensions. Even then, if they do it they'll only scrape it, which is laughable and demonstrates clearly what a joke they are.

Against the chavs they hit a 1 in 100 moment where two of their nothing shitty strikers managed to get something on target, doubt it has happened since. Then the reffing farce where the wrong player was sent off and down to 10 you can't draw any conclusions.

Our worst 2 results, the draw vs Everton - started the downturn - and the 3-0 defeat against them, showed most of the players we have aren't up to the challenge and that's a problem that won't be overcome easily. Also showed the manager up as being negative, like a mild form of Mourinho cancer - trying to kill a game just because it can be killed, instead of going out to grab it and win it.

You can't play down those big defeats, they were both humiliating and embarassing and happened at a key time as well, defeats of that manner are enough to get rid of a manager alone.

It seems at this club we can kinda sweep them under the carpet by saying it was down to the refs, unlucky or just an off day.

We're seeing way too many of these big defeats these days, in the old days these came around once in a blue moon.

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Originally Posted by Özim

You can't play down those big defeats, they were both humiliating and embarassing and happened at a key time as well, defeats of that manner are enough to get rid of a manager alone.

It seems at this club we can kinda sweep them under the carpet by saying it was down to the refs, unlucky or just an off day.

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And you can play them up, which you never pass up the opportunity to do.

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It seems at this club we can kinda sweep them under the carpet by saying it was down to the refs, unlucky or just an off day.

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Literally one post later you ignore what's said and create new words instead. Then you criticise the words you invented. You don't really need other people for one of your conversations.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

And you can play them up, which you never pass up the opportunity to do.



Literally one post later you ignore what's said and create new words instead. Then you criticise the words you invented. You don't really need other people for one of your conversations.

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I mention them because they're unacceptable, there's no playing them down.

Actually I didn't mean to quote you, it was a general reply.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

We were hopeless against Liverpool and Everton, fast asleep and deservedly trounced.

Against the gypos the officials were bent and modified the score, we deserved at least a draw in that one, both defences were shite and we were cutting the up just as easily as they were doing it to us. Liverpool did the same to them a couple of weeks back - they are overhyped shit, especially Kompany who has made more mistakes this year than Kolo. They may buy their way to a title because they have 3 multi million quid players for every position so they aren't affected by injuries and suspensions. Even then, if they do it they'll only scrape it, which is laughable and demonstrates clearly what a joke they are.

Against the chavs they hit a 1 in 100 moment where two of their nothing shitty strikers managed to get something on target, doubt it has happened since. Then the reffing farce where the wrong player was sent off and down to 10 you can't draw any conclusions.

Our worst 2 results, the draw vs Everton - started the downturn - and the 3-0 defeat against them, showed most of the players we have aren't up to the challenge and that's a problem that won't be overcome easily. Also showed the manager up as being negative, like a mild form of Mourinho cancer - trying to kill a game just because it can be killed, instead of going out to grab it and win it.

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So what are you saying, our only really bad results are in fact against teams you kinda like and the results against the teams you don't like don't count?

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Originally Posted by Özim

So what are you saying, our only really bad results are in fact against teams you kinda like and the results against the teams you don't like don't count?

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There you go again, I said "worst", not "bad" - makes a huge difference in context and doesn't suggest for a minute the other losses were not "bad", when read properly (honestly). And liking Everton? Since when? I think you mean I don't hate them for fucking up football with their blood money. That would be true.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

There you go again, I said "worst", not "bad" - makes a huge difference in context and doesn't suggest for a minute the other losses were not "bad", when read properly (honestly). And liking Everton? Since when? I think you mean I don't hate them for fucking up football with their blood money. That would be true.

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Well yeah but you're saying the City loss should have been a draw (or deserved a draw, not sure there's any difference) and blaming it on the ref and the Chelsea one was unlucky cos it was a 1 in a 100 game and the ref screwed up.

We got hammered by Chelsea and it was in big part to our awful play to give their strikers the space other teams didn't give them, the game was over before the sending off.

There's a string of awful results in the last 4-5 years, heavyish defeats which seem to be happening much more frequently than before, 4-0's, 3-0s, 5-1s etc, in the past you only saw these once every few seasons.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Well yeah but you're saying the City loss should have been a draw (or deserved a draw, not sure there's any difference) and blaming it on the ref and the Chelsea one was unlucky cos it was a 1 in a 100 game and the ref screwed up.

We got hammered by Chelsea and it was in big part to our awful play to give their strikers the space other teams didn't give them, the game was over before the sending off.

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City game you can't judge anything because the official were bent. Score could have been the other way with legit officials. Maybe not, we'll never know. but that game can't be used as a demo of anything because it was too random.

Didn't say we were unlucky, I said the fuck-up chavs were lucky, different thing. I think 7/10 we get a result against them even playing as shit as we did. And again, 10 vs 11 is not a good game to use to judge anything.

So I picked the games where is was 11 vs 11 and the dice seemed to roll evenly. Couple of games against Everton, one against pool - who we also beat a couple of times btw. Concluded from those games we have some serious issues. Which is exactly what you are saying but you don't like it when people criticise the chavs and gypos - you are way too defensive of them btw.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

City game you can't judge anything because the official were bent. Score could have been the other way with legit officials. Maybe not, we'll never know. but that game can't be used as a demo of anything because it was too random.

Didn't say we were unlucky, I said the fuck-up chavs were lucky, different thing. I think 7/10 we get a result against them even playing as shit as we did. And again, 10 vs 11 is not a good game to use to judge anything.

So I picked the games where is was 11 vs 11 and the dice seemed to roll evenly. Couple of games against Everton, one against pool - who we also beat a couple of times btw. Concluded from those games we have some serious issues. Which is exactly what you are saying but you don't like it when people criticise the chavs and gypos - you are way too defensive of them btw.

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I don't care if people Criticise City or Chelsea, what I don't like is people playing down the results against them as if they don't really matter that much. Since these teams are what we're competing against it does matter, the refs thing is bias IMO, there are some bad decisions but they don't win you or lose you games by the margins we lost them, that's just down to poor play of some sort.

As I said before in the past we rarely saw these results, ref or no ref, the reason we're seeing quite a few now is we're not that competitive against the big boys, the amount of games where we haven't turned up in the 1st half is ridiculous, the only reason we haven't lost all those games is that the smaller teams couldn't take advantage.

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Originally Posted by Özim

I don't care if people Criticise City or Chelsea, what I don't like is people playing down the results against them as if they don't really matter that much. Since these teams are what we're competing against it does matter, the refs thing is bias IMO, there are some bad decisions but they don't win you or lose you games by the margins we lost them, that's just down to poor play of some sort.

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Sigh, didn't say they didn't matter. And your statement about refs is silly. The margin in the gypo game was precisely the result of bad decisions - well corrupt decisions to be accurate. Not complaining about the ref vs the chavs or Liverpool or Everton - so trying to avoid the points I have already made by cooking up a blanket ref statement is just another case of you inventing the opposite side of the debate so you can defeat the argument. Debating is easy when you do it that way.

I said this year City and Chelsea weren't going to run away with the league and it would take time for the managers to settle. We haven't taken advantage of the situation. We were on course to finish the league on 80 odd points and now it's mathematically impossible for us to finish above 79 points. An absolute flop considering we lead the table for so long.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I said this year City and Chelsea weren't going to run away with the league and it would take time for the managers to settle. We haven't taken advantage of the situation. We were on course to finish the league on 80 odd points and now it's mathematically impossible for us to finish above 79 points. An absolute flop considering we lead the table for so long.

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Does the fact our performances tailed off as we lost more of our better players to injury enter into it? Or is it just a case of flopping without any cause other than, say, being bottlers and the manager being at fault? What I mean is, were there practical factors that could have played a part in us failing to grab maybe 3-6 more points? I guess we all accept we'll lose a few, we surely weren't expected to go the whole season undefeated. So we've dropped some critical points over the course of the season. We know about the failure to do any useful business in January, that's a few points. We know we were too negative in some of the games. More points. Losing players to injury seems to be viewed as an excuse, but I think it's more than safe to say we lost a few points there. And for anyone who thinks the decisions made by officials evened out for us over the season, well they really weren't paying attention, so that's a few points there too. Nothing that can't be remedied with a bit more depth to the squad and a bolder attitude and a slice of luck with the officials. If we've collapsed, then the chav and gypos seasons must be really lamentable. Their excuses? Mega million quid managers who need time to adjust to the billion quid triple teams at their disposal. That's not a valid excuse really , is it? It's a bullshit excuse. But with a much smaller squad in terms of genuine talent, the reason for our failure is analysed to death and collapse is the conclusion. We could well be collapsing to a trophy and a CL spot. Not everything we want but an absolute flop? Not at all. More like a wild exaggeration.

Injuries were a factor but we went into the season short, overplayed key players so the outcome shouldn't be a surprise considering we've had injury problems in the past that have effected our season. Our tough schedule wasn't a surprise and when we had injury problems we signed a player with a back injury so he couldn't help us in the tough run. Incompetence, carelessness an oversight, whatever you want to call it, but we've made rookie mistakes and we're and experienced squad. We should know better.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Injuries were a factor but we went into the season short, overplayed key players so the outcome shouldn't be a surprise considering we've had injury problems in the past that have effected our season. Our tough schedule wasn't a surprise and when we had injury problems we signed a player with a back injury so he couldn't help us in the tough run. Incompetence, carelessness an oversight, whatever you want to call it, but we've made rookie mistakes and we're and experienced squad. We should know better.

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Making mistakes is not the same as being an absolute flop though, is it? We could have done better in several ways, but there's no point going to the end of the spectrum and saying it was a lot worse than the reality. We still had a good start to the season. The defence improved a lot. We got treated to an incredible development spurt from Ramsey until injury hit. We smacked the spuds around and made them cry. We did okay at home against the clubs above us. There were positives too. And if we end up winning the cup and finishing 4th then in terms of the league there's no real advance, although we haven't dropped off as some of us feared, but certainly a trophy means a better season than the last one. Provided we win the fucking thing.

We flopped in the league. I'm not going to be swayed in that. It's a bitter disappointment.

We may only be a win away from liverpool in this top 4 league but the manner of the three defeats illustrates a wider gap than just three points. That's the most worrying thing.

But generally, I think you have to either win that small group or come very close to it.

http://hitrowz.com/2013/12/26/do-you...omment-page-1/

This only gives a percentage of winning the top four league to winning the title. Not a break down of how many points those who don't win the top four league accrue when they win the title.