Arsenal 2-2 Bayern Player Ratings and Match Reaction

Raya 3.5 - Shit the bed


White 7 - Best defender on the night


Saliba 4.5 - Looked nervous and lost his head


Gabriel 4.5 - Blind pass, he’s had a tendency for these


Kiwior 4 - Not a left back and it shows


Jorginho 5 - Lacked the pace and physicality to assert himself on the game


Rice 6 - Doesnt look quite ready at this level


Odegaard 6 - Started well but faded


Martinelli 5 - Isolated on the left


Havertz 5 - Also anonymous


Saka 7 - Looks more and more lively, not sure if it was penalty or not at the end. Seen them given, seen them not



Subs


Jesus 7 - Looked like the player we had at start of last season

Trossard 7 - Lovely finish

Zinchenko 7 - Looked more composed and controlled than Kiwior

Partey 6 - Still a bit rusty


Tonight showed why Arteta is not a top coach, the performance was naive and the set up was naive…played into Bayern’s hands. Can blame individual errors as much as you like but fact is we set ourselves up to be taken apart by raw pace, and if Bayern were any good there’s no way we’d have got that equaliser.

We love to revert to type, all the attacks coming down one area of the pitch from us making us incredibly predictable.

For the money we’ve spent, we don’t look like we belong.

To be fair, while we have spent big, teams generally don’t spend a load of money and then immediately sweep all before them. There’s usually a few years where they’re building and maturing.
It’s our first time back in the CL for a while, getting to the quarters for the first time in 14 years is pretty good. Bayern have been there year on year and also spent big on Kane.

So while I don’t entirely disagree with you, if it does end here then I won’t be calling for Arteta’s head. We do look to have matured this season, we need to run to the line in the title race. I hope we stand up in the second leg of this tie too, we are perfectly capable of winning out there.

Quite disappointed really but that’s also a testament to how much we’ve grown over the past 2 years.

Started well which Saka capped with a nice finish but what happened immediately after was a harsh reminder that we’re still a bit undercooked at this level. We lost our heads which was a little out of character considering how strong and composed we’ve looked recently. Happy we salvaged the game of course but even then Bayern took control after our equaliser and could have won it. I thought we were second best for most of the game and played into their hands.

The tie is very much alive but we’ll need a monstrous effort to go through now. If we were a decent counter attacking team I’d be more confident but we struggle to find outlets when pinned back.

Anyway, better dust ourselves off quickly for Villa this weekend. They’re all must wins now.

Getting to the 1/4 finals wasn’t just getting a medal for participation, it was about testing ourselves against the best (not that Bayern qualify on that score anyway) and we’ve been found desperately wanting

No money doesn’t guarantee overnight success but the money hasn’t been spent overnight, we’ve had more than enough time. And not to labour the point but, this wasn’t coming up against superior opposition this was explosive molten effluence on our part by thinking we could just turn up dominate possession.

Even mid table German teams have proven less naive than us last night

I called April a bear trap for good reason, and we were so overconfident having avoided the first one against Brighton, we’ve just wandered heedlessly into this one.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

No money doesn’t guarantee overnight success but the money hasn’t been spent overnight, we’ve had more than enough time.

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Have we, though? Chelsea were taken over in 2003 and started spunking money around like it was going out of fashion. They didn't get to a CL final till 2008 and didn't win it till 2012.
City only won it last year having been taken over in 2008.
Last year's title challenge came out of nowhere, no-one expected it. We did expect it this year and so far we've shown a maturity that was lacking last year, standing up in the big games and getting results, doing the business in potential banana skins like Brighton. I didn't expect us to be sweeping all before us in the CL this season. Bayern are not suddenly a bad side despite their domestic woes this year, they have far more CL experience than us. That said I do think we showed naivety last night and I do hope there is no hangover at the weekend.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Have we, though? Chelsea were taken over in 2003 and started spunking money around like it was going out of fashion. They didn't get to a CL final till 2008 and didn't win it till 2012.
City only won it last year having been taken over in 2008.
Last year's title challenge came out of nowhere, no-one expected it. We did expect it this year and so far we've shown a maturity that was lacking last year, standing up in the big games and getting results, doing the business in potential banana skins like Brighton. I didn't expect us to be sweeping all before us in the CL this season. Bayern are not suddenly a bad side despite their domestic woes this year, they have far more CL experience than us. That said I do think we showed naivety last night and I do hope there is no hangover at the weekend.

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We aren’t talking about winning the champions league, that was never an expectation from this season. But we are at a point of the season where we can’t afford to make any mistakes let alone the glaring ones we made last night. The naivety of thinking we could just overcommit and that their pace players wouldn’t give us problems. It’s outrageously stupid

I think you're being harsh, HCZ. It was disappointing to gift Bayern 2 goals in the way we did, but (1) Bayern are one of the world's best teams and 6x winners of the CL (all this talk of them being a fading force because of their Budesliga position was a load of hot air - the CL is their season now, and they were always capable of raising their game for this), and (2) its been 14 years since we were in the CL Quarters. For me talk of winning the competition was always fanciful. We are a callow team and it showed, but I don't think its unexpected that an inexperienced team and manager will make mistakes at the highest level. That said, Arteta can only pick the team, and it was not down to him that we spurned clear chances or mistakes were made for their 2 goals. Nor that Kane should have walked for his elbow and we would have had a pen at the death on another day.

So while we were naive, we are still understandably learning and gaining experience at this level. Given our history with Bayern, a draw is not the end of the world. We will learn and improve from this. I don't really expect us to go through, but calling for Arteta's head is IMO an over reaction.

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Originally Posted by IBK

I think you're being harsh, HCZ. It was disappointing to gift Bayern 2 goals in the way we did, but (1) Bayern are one of the world's best teams and 6x winners of the CL (all this talk of them being a fading force because of their Budesliga position was a load of hot air - the CL is their season now, and they were always capable of raising their game for this), and (2) its been 14 years since we were in the CL Quarters. For me talk of winning the competition was always fanciful. We are a callow team and it showed, but I don't think its unexpected that an inexperienced team and manager will make mistakes at the highest level. That said, Arteta can only pick the team, and it was not down to him that we spurned clear chances or mistakes were made for their 2 goals. Nor that Kane should have walked for his elbow and we would have had a pen at the death on another day.

So while we were naive, we are still understandably learning and gaining experience at this level. Given our history with Bayern, a draw is not the end of the world. We will learn and improve from this. I don't really expect us to go through, but calling for Arteta's head is IMO an over reaction.

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Firstly you’ll have to point towards where I’ve directly called for his head. I said he’s not a top coach and that’s consistent with a long established view of mine. I can’t guarantee I won’t be calling for his head but that depends on whether he meets the criteria I set out last month - which is that we either still need to be in the champions league or be competitive in the league come May 1st. The latter he’s on track to do, the former well I just don’t see how we repair the damage from last night.
I don’t buy into the oh well we’ve been out of the competition for so long stuff, bollocks to that…we are here to show we belong not to shit ourselves to an inferior Bayern team. No I don’t expect us to win the competition. What I saw of Bayern Munich lately…it was well within our capability to take them apart at the joints, but Arteta’s hubris and psychological weakness on the part of the players (which is ultimately attributable to the coach as well) has shafted us in one of the two competitions and it’s not even mid April.

Was there last night and also just watched the highlights again

Our lack of a proper LB really hurt us last night, I assumed Tomi would start and while a fan of Kiwior he did struggle in what is not his natural position against a very good player in Sane. I wasn't surprised Kiwior was subbed at HT but again was expecting Tomi not Zin, who was typically awful, offering little in defence and equally as little in attack and giving the ball away frequently as usual - it surely means Tomi isn't sufficiently fit or even has excabeted his injury issues, which seems typical for him

Our LB position is one which Brighton (unsuccessfully) and Bayern (successfully) identified as a weakness and surely every team will do the same - it shows the folly of letting Tierney go

Brilliant goal from Saka but more generally it was another CL game where it felt ike the CL itself is something which makes us nervous, we never seem to be at our best

Raya on the first goal totally cocked up and it's disappointing when you consider he's supposed to be a safer option than Ram

Bayern's pel was a little soft but the Saka one wasn't really a good shout, it looks like he deliberately tripped himself up over Neuer's leg

I agree with whoever said somewhere here that Trossard and Jesus should start the away game, they have an assurance and confidence some of our other players seem to lack in these games plus are fresher.

We can still do this and if we can stay level in the away leg until near the end, we just keep it ultra tight then seek to win on pels

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Raya on the first goal totally cocked up and it's disappointing when you consider he's supposed to be a safer option than Ram

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I've heard people criticise Raya but I don't really think it was his fault.
His positioning was admittedly odd - way up the pitch when he didn't need to be - but I don't think that's what caused us to concede.
I'm more annoyed about the second one - we just let the player run and run, then chopped him down in the box. Then Raya went down so early all Kane had to do was pass it in. A mess all round.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I've heard people criticise Raya but I don't really think it was his fault.
His positioning was admittedly odd - way up the pitch when he didn't need to be - but I don't think that's what caused us to concede.
I'm more annoyed about the second one - we just let the player run and run, then chopped him down in the box. Then Raya went down so early all Kane had to do was pass it in. A mess all round.

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For me, if Raya keeps his cool and stays a little further back, instead of rushing to the ball, he's a better chance of saving it

You're right on the second, Kiwior needs to take a yellow there IMO to stop the run and yes, Raya went down too early for the pel and made it easy

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Originally Posted by Letters

I've heard people criticise Raya but I don't really think it was his fault.
His positioning was admittedly odd - way up the pitch when he didn't need to be - but I don't think that's what caused us to concede.
I'm more annoyed about the second one - we just let the player run and run, then chopped him down in the box. Then Raya went down so early all Kane had to do was pass it in. A mess all round.

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Raya was at fault not just for the first goal but in kicking the ball rather than giving it to Gabriel which should have been another penalty awarded against us although Gabriel was just as dimwitted in both instances

Plus Easier said than done, You look at the run from Sane, players were trying to get a tackle in on him but he just danced round them all, the problem was the space he had because we’d pushed up so high and because Kiwior is not a left back much less an attacking wing back or whatever the fuck the role is

Saliba was impetuous but I think had he not have brought him down, he’d have scored anyway


The problem last night was to treat Bayern like a mid table premier league side. Whilst this is not a good Bayern side it was abundantly clear to anyone who isn’t an Imbecile (so doesn’t include Arteta) that they couldn’t be given time and space because of their pace and technique.

We went chasing a second goal after the first, and we compounded our error by looking to go back in front as soon as they equalised. There was no need for that, and a competent coach would have factored that into the equation and slowed things down for a bit.

Poor tactical set up, poor in game management. He got schooled by Tuchel.

I also felt there was a real 'if only' moment when, not long after Saka scored, White was through on goal

If he buries that - or passes to Havertz who was running in - and we went 2-0 it would have really had Bayern on the ropes

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Originally Posted by Mac76

I also felt there was a real 'if only' moment when, not long after Saka scored, White was through on goal

If he buries that - or passes to Havertz who was running in - and we went 2-0 it would have really had Bayern on the ropes

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Correct.
I heard my neighbour yelling and thought at first we'd maybe gone 2-0 up, but he was actually yelling because we hadn't.
There are such fine lines in football. Had he buried that we'd probably have won the game. Ah well.

I think he was offside for that anyway.

In any case, he was probably the last player I'd have chosen to be in that position :lol:

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Originally Posted by WMUG

I think he was offside for that anyway.

In any case, he was probably the last player I'd have chosen to be in that position :lol:

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not sure if he was offside, no-one mentioned it

and he can put them away when he wants to

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7HlV0GRQ0M

Interesting tactical analysis this. I can't really disagree with most of it because he clearly knows a hell of a lot more about football tactics than I do :lol:

The only thing I would disagree with is the bit where he says we never looked in danger of losing it after getting the equaliser, they did hit the post after that.

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Originally Posted by WMUG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7HlV0GRQ0M

Interesting tactical analysis this. I can't really disagree with most of it because he clearly knows a hell of a lot more about football tactics than I do :lol:

The only thing I would disagree with is the bit where he says we never looked in danger of losing it after getting the equaliser, they did hit the post after that.

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:lol: what utter shit

The video makes out that Arteta is a grand chess master for the small positional tactical details whilst overlooking the fact the large scale hubris of being pushed up that high against Bayern Munich…when they can punish you with raw pace.

The joke is we have players with the ability to execute the counter to devestating effect, but too easy for Galaxy brain

I don't think Arteta is a chess grand master.
But he's not the dolt you make out either.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't think Arteta is a chess grand master.
But he's not the dolt you make out either.

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I don’t think I’ve made him out to be a dolt.

What I think is that he’s guilty of hubris. Wenger was similar at his worst….this idea that you have this particular style of play and you play it no matter who you’re playing is for the birds

It’s also not true of Arteta, he employed a deep block in both games against City, so it tells me that he did not factor in that Bayern had direct players with raw pace that could exploit the space, or that his own tactical “cleverness” could overcome it.

That’s the problem, I don’t think Arteta is anywhere near as clever as he thinks he is and even if he was, often that can lead to arrogance and a lack of common sense. Common sense would dictate that you don’t give pace merchants like Gnabry and Sane the space they got on Tuesday.

All i'd say is that unless Tomi's not fit enough it was a big mistake not to use him in that game - I'd have played him from the start - but I suspect his absence does mean he can't be fit, so that's not really on Arteta

We really do need to buy an LB in the summer though, we literally don't have one atm unless you count Timber and it's not totaly cleear what his number one position will be

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Originally Posted by WMUG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7HlV0GRQ0M

Interesting tactical analysis this. I can't really disagree with most of it because he clearly knows a hell of a lot more about football tactics than I do :lol:

The only thing I would disagree with is the bit where he says we never looked in danger of losing it after getting the equaliser, they did hit the post after that.

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After we equalised Bayern got hold of the ball and dominated. We were a post away from losing the game and it wouldn’t have been undeserved defeat. I don’t think the tactics were great throughout and the fact we salvaged the game is more about our resilience rather than any grand moves from Arteta.

I’m not angry about it though, disappointed yes but also very aware that despite their struggles in the league Bayern Munich are CL royalty with a better attack than ours, I didn’t really buy into being favourites for this tie because of our lack of proven ability to deal with these occasions. We made hard work of Porto so there was nothing suggesting this was going to be any different.

I never felt we were favourites or underdogs. Bayern are certainly beatable this season, but they have a lot of quality and a load of CL experience.
I still feel the same really, maybe we're slight underdogs now but we certainly aren't out of it.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

All i'd say is that unless Tomi's not fit enough it was a big mistake not to use him in that game - I'd have played him from the start - but I suspect his absence does mean he can't be fit, so that's not really on Arteta

We really do need to buy an LB in the summer though, we literally don't have one atm unless you count Timber and it's not totaly cleear what his number one position will be

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Lol. Tommy is NEVER fit <_<

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Originally Posted by Letters

I never felt we were favourites or underdogs. Bayern are certainly beatable this season, but they have a lot of quality and a load of CL experience.
I still feel the same really, maybe we're slight underdogs now but we certainly aren't out of it.

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This will sound really negative (thats what supporting Arsenal does to you after 45 years). But my emotions were changing througfhout the game.

A small part of me would sacrifice progressing in this competition so that we have a clear calender for the Premier League run in. (Which I still feel is our best chance of a trophy).
On the other hand, my head nearly hit the celing when Trossard scored our equaliser :shrug: :scarf:

Maybe we can with both of the bloody cups!!

Last season showed that being out of the cups doesn't necessarily help, I think it's more important to keep succeeding in both competitions to have a winning mentality - anyway I really don't want to lose to Bayern

Arteta's ability to rotate sucessfuly is under the microscope now - Jesus isn't 100% neither is Saka

even though Villa are good we will need to think about who we field on Sunday, for example do we start for ESR again and possibly Nelson?

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Last season showed that being out of the cups doesn't necessarily help, I think it's more important to keep succeeding in both competitions to have a winning mentality - anyway I really don't want to lose to Bayern

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:gp:

Last season I was saying "oh well, at least being out of the competitions gives us a nice clear run at the title run in". But it didn't work like that. Winning is a habit, it keeps momentum going. I don't regard Tuesday's result as a huge setback but if we do go out in the away leg it will be interesting to see how we cope with that.
I remember the week in The Invincibles season when we went out of both cups and I was sitting there at Highbury on Good Friday, 2-1 down at HT against Liverpool thinking we were going to blow the lot. Thankfully we had Henry who almost single-handedly got us out of that mess and up and running again, but bouncing back from setbacks is an important skill in a title winning side.

Played at Newcastle two days after that. Insane really. I went to four games that season. The last one was away at Blackburn (I was living in Staffordshire for Uni so easier to go to away games).

The previous season United fans had been singing We want our Trophy back after winning at Spurs (to the tune of La donna e mobile)


We started singing that in the away stand at Ewood Park

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Firstly you’ll have to point towards where I’ve directly called for his head. I said he’s not a top coach and that’s consistent with a long established view of mine. I can’t guarantee I won’t be calling for his head but that depends on whether he meets the criteria I set out last month - which is that we either still need to be in the champions league or be competitive in the league come May 1st. The latter he’s on track to do, the former well I just don’t see how we repair the damage from last night.
I don’t buy into the oh well we’ve been out of the competition for so long stuff, bollocks to that…we are here to show we belong not to shit ourselves to an inferior Bayern team. No I don’t expect us to win the competition. What I saw of Bayern Munich lately…it was well within our capability to take them apart at the joints, but Arteta’s hubris and psychological weakness on the part of the players (which is ultimately attributable to the coach as well) has shafted us in one of the two competitions and it’s not even mid April.

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OK fair enough re calling for Arteta's head, but I still think the criticism of Arteta is over the top.


It's easy to use hindsight to draw conclusions about our approach to the game, based on how it evolved. However this could equally apply the other way. The manager clearly set out at home to try to take the game to an 'inferior' Bayern team, and wanted his players to be positve and brave. Had White scored from his gilt-edged chance, this approach would have been vindicated. Also, recent games had shown that our defence was good enough to reduce Citeh - a better team than Bayern, to scant chances, and the manager backed it to be imperious again. It was not down to Arteta that key mistakes were made by the players involved in their 2 goals.


What this game showed is that mistakes will be punished by top players. Bayern may not be what they were in the Bundesliga but a front 3 of Kane; Sane and Gnabry is one of the best in the world, and what might have been salvageable misplaced balls were ruthlessly exploited by players at the top of their games. .


This is how it goes sometimes. You say that CL pedigree is bollocks, but experience isn't. Between 2011/12 season and now Bayern have been have been in the CL Quarters 4 times; the semis 4 times and the final 3 times, only falling below this level once in 12 years. They have huge reserves of experience to draw upon at this level - we don't. I don't think this reasult was because of the manager (beyond the fact that in hindsight any tactics can be argued to have been wrong), I think it was because the players were affected by the occasion for some parts of the game - and could have shown cooler heads at key moments.


Who knows what more defensive tactics would have resulted in? maybe we don;t score our first. If we are going to criticise Arteta then we have to commend him for his game changing subs too.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't regard Tuesday's result as a huge setback but if we do go out in the away leg it will be interesting to see how we cope with that.
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Depends how it happens - if it's a close run thing and happens with the odd goal or on pels it's ok, if we get trashed it's not a good look

But as i said, I really don't want to lose to Bayern, but if we get through I'm praying it's not Citeh - there's no shame in losing to Real but losing to Citeh could have title race implications

Bayern have struggled with counter attacking all season and to be honest Lazio had a lot of chances before they went 1-0 down on the night.

Really don't agree it is as catastrophic as HCZ makes out.

In this one we'll approach the game in a different way to at home, that's obvious.

Better that shipping 5. We call it progress. Not winning it so the faster we are out of this the better for the PL chance.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I don’t think I’ve made him out to be a dolt.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

this halfwit has coached...

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:trophy:

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Originally Posted by Letters

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:trophy:

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You understand the difference between an argument and hyperbole I assume ?

I don’t know maybe you don’t

Apology accepted :cool:

Should have beaten those shit-kickers. Mental issues again. We are the much better team. Shame, but maybe a blessing in disguise. The gypos going out though - that was hilarious, 200 trillion billion spent and they can't even beat a bunch of Spanish waiters.