Bayern Munich v Arsenal. 17th April. 20:00. CL 1/4 Final 2nd Leg.

Team selection will be interesting. I’d have Martinelli start as I think we’ll need his pace on the transitions when Bayern inevitably have more of the ball. Should Jesus be rewarded with a start after his first leg impact? Which has probably been forgotten about now after his Villa stinker.

Either way I think we’re in for a tough night and I expect glorious failure. I think we’ll play relatively well but won’t have enough up front to get the job done, while their forwards will kill it off.

Hope I’m laughably wrong but…3-1. :rose:

We'll lose and lose well.

I agree on Martinelli, I'd been leaning towards Trossard starting but maybe he'd be better coming on later on again - same with Jesus.

if we start with those two we've less to bring off the bench

I think your estimate of how the game will go is probably pretty accurate, I'd really like it if we could just keep it tight and if we lose it's only by the odd goal or even on pels

Of course if it does go to ET and pels that won't help when the weekend comes around

anyway 3-0 K*** hatter

Beyond the point of caring to be honest

Villa was a must win and we lost. That in my view is unforgivable. No matter what the Arteta stans on Twitter say

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Beyond the point of caring to be honest

Villa was a must win and we lost. That in my view is unforgivable. No matter what the Arteta stans on Twitter say

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Unforgivable :lol:

I never understand fans who treat the club like a top restaurant who served their steak well done when they asked for medium rare.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Unforgivable :lol:

I never understand fans who treat the club like a top restaurant who served their steak well done when they asked for medium rare.

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What a strange analogy

If a restaurant does your steak well done rather than medium rare you’d ask them to take it back


The fact is the league is done and it’s very unlikely we are going to win the champions league. If you think it’s odd that you’re not going to have the same level of engagement when there’s significantly less to play for, I don’t know what to tell you

Think about fans of mid table clubs, probably not going to make Europe and are under no threat of relegation. Do you think the same level of interest in results are there with rubber stamp games ?

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

What a strange analogy

If a restaurant does your steak well done rather than medium rare you’d ask them to take it back

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Well sure. You're paying for a service. And in a restaurant there's no-one else trying to spoil your steak.
So if they don't get it right then particularly in a good restaurant you could say it's unacceptable.

But that isn't how football works. Football is competitive. We wanted to win on Sunday but so did Villa. And they're not some cloggers, outside the Top 3 they're the next best team. And yes, yes, City swept them aside but Spurs thumped them too. Football's like that. The overall point is Villa are a good side, it was never a nailed on win (although I was pretty confident before the game, admittedly). That's why I find it strange that people talk about things being "unacceptable" or imply they want to see the manager like some Karen in a restaurant or store.

Now saying that, if Villa had completely thumped us and we just hadn't turned up then I think that would be unacceptable, but that's not what happened. We dominated the first half, we had a few chances which on another day could have gone in and we'd be having a different conversation. That's the other thing about football, there are often very fine lines.

It's disappointing and I agree the league is done. As I noted elsewhere, we'd won 10 out of 11 - the 11th being a very creditable point at The Ethiad. Such is City's tenacity, that still didn't give us enough of a cushion that we could afford to get a single bad result. As we found last season, and Liverpool have found multiple times, City are relentless.
All that said - if we don't pick ourselves up and run to the line then I will find that unacceptable. I don't expect us to go through against Bayern, and I wouldn't regard that as a disaster, for all their domestic woes they're still a very good side who have loads of experience at this stage. But I do expect us to keep going in the league. City will win it, but let's make them win it this year. Don't just hand it to them like we did last season.

/\

This

Another 2-0 defeat here for certain.

I can't even see a draw happening after 90 minutes.

If Arsenal get through, no matter how, it will be Arteta's best ever result as manager of Arsenal.

It won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well sure. You're paying for a service. And in a restaurant there's no-one else trying to spoil your steak.
So if they don't get it right then particularly in a good restaurant you could say it's unacceptable.

But that isn't how football works. Football is competitive. We wanted to win on Sunday but so did Villa. And they're not some cloggers, outside the Top 3 they're the next best team. And yes, yes, City swept them aside but Spurs thumped them too. Football's like that. The overall point is Villa are a good side, it was never a nailed on win (although I was pretty confident before the game, admittedly). That's why I find it strange that people talk about things being "unacceptable" or imply they want to see the manager like some Karen in a restaurant or store.

Now saying that, if Villa had completely thumped us and we just hadn't turned up then I think that would be unacceptable, but that's not what happened. We dominated the first half, we had a few chances which on another day could have gone in and we'd be having a different conversation. That's the other thing about football, there are often very fine lines.

It's disappointing and I agree the league is done. As I noted elsewhere, we'd won 10 out of 11 - the 11th being a very creditable point at The Ethiad. Such is City's tenacity, that still didn't give us enough of a cushion that we could afford to get a single bad result. As we found last season, and Liverpool have found multiple times, City are relentless.
All that said - if we don't pick ourselves up and run to the line then I will find that unacceptable. I don't expect us to go through against Bayern, and I wouldn't regard that as a disaster, for all their domestic woes they're still a very good side who have loads of experience at this stage. But I do expect us to keep going in the league. City will win it, but let's make them win it this year. Don't just hand it to them like we did last season.

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But the analogy doesn’t hold up, because I understand I’m not getting a service. I don’t become disinterested when they don’t cook my steak correctly I ask them to take it back

That you can’t see that this is a collapse rather than a one off result is on you. The collapse started against Bayern and continued on Sunday, I know how the script goes and you should too by now.

Villa are a decent team but we are a team going for the league title, it’s not just disappointing not to beat them it’s unacceptable…go on about City as much as you like…you simply can’t lose such games at a crucial part of the season and expect anything good to happen as a result.

You accept City will likely win, so where’s the incentive for my interest to remain?. I don’t think losing at home is conducive to chasing them all the way to the end and I doubt you do either.

It’s not about even being two points behind them, it’s about saying when we’ve got even harder fixtures to come the likelihood is that the gap will get bigger.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

But the analogy doesn’t hold up, because I understand I’m not getting a service.

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So why are you acting like you are? That's my point.
It's "unacceptable"! :lol: Behave yourself.

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That you can’t see that this is a collapse rather than a one off result is on you. The collapse started against Bayern and continued on Sunday, I know how the script goes and you should too by now.

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Two games isn't a collapse :lol:
And it's two tough games, neither side are one we should be expecting to sweep aside with the minimum of fuss.
It could certainly become a collapse of course - historically it is how we've rolled. I like to think there's a bit more about us this season, we've certainly passed a number of tests we failed last year. But we'll see how we respond this time.
I wouldn't regard us losing in Munich as evidence of a collapse, we were never favourites in that tie.
But if we get a bad result in the next league game then OK, that's not good enough. We need to pick ourselves up and push City this year.

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You accept City will likely win, so where’s the incentive for my interest to remain?

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I don't care how interested you are, or not. The thing I'm talking about is you (and other fans) acting like you've had bad service - talk of things being "unacceptable". A lack of effort is unacceptable - these guys are very well paid. But that's not what happened on Sunday. Poor results against what should be cannon fodder is a concern too but that's not what happened against Bayern or Villa either.

A proper collapse I agree, that would be unacceptable. I feel City will win the league, I also feel Bayern will probably progress in the CL. But if we don't pick ourselves up and pick things up in the league to push City then that isn't good enough. Although with our harder fixtures we always knew we were probably 3rd favourites.

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Originally Posted by Letters

So why are you acting like you are? That's my point.
It's "unacceptable"! :lol: Behave yourself.


Two games isn't a collapse :lol:
And it's two tough games, neither side are one we should be expecting to sweep aside with the minimum of fuss.
It could certainly become a collapse of course - historically it is how we've rolled. I like to think there's a bit more about us this season, we've certainly passed a number of tests we failed last year. But we'll see how we respond this time.
I wouldn't regard us losing in Munich as evidence of a collapse, we were never favourites in that tie.
But if we get a bad result in the next league game then OK, that's not good enough. We need to pick ourselves up and push City this year.


I don't care how interested you are, or not. The thing I'm talking about is you (and other fans) acting like you've had bad service - talk of things being "unacceptable". A lack of effort is unacceptable - these guys are very well paid. But that's not what happened on Sunday. Poor results against what should be cannon fodder is a concern too but that's not what happened against Bayern or Villa either.

A proper collapse I agree, that would be unacceptable. I feel City will win the league, I also feel Bayern will probably progress in the CL. But if we don't pick ourselves up and pick things up in the league to push City then that isn't good enough. Although with our harder fixtures we always knew we were probably 3rd favourites.

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I don’t consider the results acceptable, that’s an opinion…I’m not complaining about poor service im rendering my opinion

Neither result was necessary, both games were winnable and therefore should have been won. Those are the standards…they are high but they have to be high. Not because City are a juggernaut, but because they are the results you have to expect if you want to win things. Not just shrug your shoulders and say “oh well bad lack”

If that’s your response to collapse (and yes at this stage in the season that’s precisely what it is…April as I consistently stated is a pathway full of bear traps and one mistep and you stagger into another) than you do you.

I’ve seen the film one too many times. I’ll watch the team as I always do, but not in hope and certainly not in expectation

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I don’t consider the results acceptable, that’s an opinion

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Sure. I’m just telling you how that sort of comment always sounds to me.
It sounds like you’re complaining about poor service.
And I’m not saying we shouldn’t have any standards, but in a competitive sport and in a sport where the lines are so fine, I never think it makes much sense. I mean, if we’d lost to Sheffield Utd having completely shat our pants then ok, but that isn’t what happened.

Pretty much any game is winnable when you’re at our level, to the point it becomes a meaningless word. But obviously you’re not going to win every game.

To call 1 draw and 1 loss a collapse in the context of the run we’ve been on is just ludicrous. Obviously there’s no objective definition of a collapse so if you want to define it like that then whatever. You do you too. But given results this calendar year and the teams we played in those two games I regard characterising it as such as absurd.

It could certainly turn into a collapse of course, and if it does then I’ll probably start agreeing with you. But going out tomorrow would not turn it in to a collapse - unless we get a right humping, maybe. But whatever happens tomorrow we need to win the next league game to start putting a bit of pressure back on. If we don’t then fine, I’d agree that’s not acceptable to just down tools when we are still in with a shout, even if only mathematically

The point is as I’m said repeatedly is that if you want to win things these results are unacceptable. That’s not the team failing in its service levels to me, that’s the club failing to meet its stated objectives

A draw on Sunday would have been a collapse because it was a must win game. There are no excuses when you’re challenging for the big prizes. It’s a result you can afford in October, it’s not one you can afford in April. That’s how this works…and it’s how it’s always worked.

This isn’t 1989 where the 2-1 loss at home to Derby can be remedied by winning at Anfield

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

It’s a result you can afford in October, it’s not one you can afford in April. That’s how this works…and it’s how it’s always worked

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How funny to say that and then immediately follow it with

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This isn’t 1989 where the 2-1 loss at home to Derby can be remedied by winning at Anfield

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You immediately follow the claim that we can't afford to slip up at this stage of the season and have never been able to with an example where we did slip up and then won the title. And that 2-1 defeat was followed by a disappointing 2-2 against Wimbledon. 1 point out of 6 in two of our last 3 games. Now that, my good man, I can agree is a collapse.

I do agree we won't win the title now, City won't slip up and even if they do our harder fixtures make it unlikely we will capitalise. But I'd say the main reason we can't afford to slip up now is because we are up against a machine. There's never been a side like City before, maybe for one off seasons there has but over a prolonged period 10 wins out of 11 - and the 11th being a draw at their place, so not a game where they made up any ground on us - and that run didn't give us enough of a gap that we could allow ourselves a single slip. City are relentless as Liverpool have found multiple times - getting 97 points and not winning the title, it's insane.

As I said, my main interest now is we beat Wolves. City have the semi-final so that would put us top. I don't expect City to buckle, they've been there and done it too many times. But let's do our bit and put what pressure we can on. If we fail to do that then I'll agree that's unacceptable.

I'm agreeing with you here, Letters.

We are all disappointed with Sunday's result, and I suspect that even Arsenal optimists fear another collapse - and accept that we won't win the league from here. I would agree that if we do collapse, and don't show some fight to run Citeh closer, then this could be deemed 'unacceptable' and evidence of a lack of progress from last season.

Where I disagree is the characterisation of the Villa and Bayern results to date 'unacceptable'. It's not 'unacceptable' fight back to a draw against Bayern full stop. As for Villa - we lost a football match. It happens to everyone. Even Citeh. That's the nature of football. I agree that very poor performances can be unacceptable, but taking the Villa game as a whole, this was not the case on Sunday. The result was not good enough to make a title likely, but the fact is that given Citeh's relentlessness anything less than absolute perfection would likely not have won the title.

And this is my issue with labeling a poor result 'unacceptable'. It's measuring our team by a standard of absolute perfection, when the reality is that this is essentially a unicorn standard. We all know that our team is not perfect, so while we can be disappointed at a poor result, IMO we do need to see things in their proper context. We neither have the strength in depth; nor the experience, nor the resources of a generational team in Citeh - the best team in the world and going for a historic second consecutive treble to become arguably the greatest club team of all time, so why is it fair to measure Arsenal by this standard?

This is not being defeatist - of course I want to see my team aspiring to be 'perfect' - but this is an aspiration, not a measure of acceptability.

The point is title challenges don’t allow for weakness or slip ups. The first half of the season is largely about putting yourself in a position where you can go on a run in the second half

Historically this is how we’ve won most title races in the modern era


The 97/98 season required us to win eight games in a row. The 01/02 season required 12 wins in a row


Yes defeats happen, but that’s an excuse for losers. The fact is when it comes to the crunch, you find a way to win. Like we had to on Good Friday 2004 when we went twice behind to Liverpool. Defeat is what happens to the other teams. Whilst I don’t know if the club has a losers mentality, I think too many of the fans do.

We recovered a draw against Bayern Munich? So what? We should never have been behind to them to begin with. Come back to me and tell me it’s not a collapse if we achieve what Dortmund did last night with a 4-2 win.


Wenger discovered whilst in Japan he had a problem with his players at Grampus Eight, what that problem was that although the players were hardworking, did everything he expected of them and more. They were losing games because they didn’t hate defeat…they saw it as an occupational hazard.


No you have to hate defeat, make it make you physically ill to lose like it did Wenger when he had the passion. Not meekly surrender to it and say “don’t worry we will do better next time”. No you can’t change what was, but you make sure it never happens again.
What we do here is we make excuses for it

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

The point is title challenges don’t allow for weakness or slip ups. The first half of the season is largely about putting yourself in a position where you can go on a run in the second half

Historically this is how we’ve won most title races in the modern era


The 97/98 season required us to win eight games in a row. The 01/02 season required 12 wins in a row


Yes defeats happen, but that’s an excuse for losers. The fact is when it comes to the crunch, you find a way to win. Like we had to on Good Friday 2004 when we went twice behind to Liverpool. Defeat is what happens to the other teams. Whilst I don’t know if the club has a losers mentality, I think too many of the fans do.

We recovered a draw against Bayern Munich? So what? We should never have been behind to them to begin with. Come back to me and tell me it’s not a collapse if we achieve what Dortmund did last night with a 4-2 win.


Wenger discovered whilst in Japan he had a problem with his players at Grampus Eight, what that problem was that although the players were hardworking, did everything he expected of them and more. They were losing games because they didn’t hate defeat…they saw it as an occupational hazard.


No you have to hate defeat, make it make you physically ill to lose like it did Wenger when he had the passion. Not meekly surrender to it and say “don’t worry we will do better next time”. No you can’t change what was, but you make sure it never happens again.
What we do here is we make excuses for it

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I agree with your sentiment but I also think you need to contextualise the situation at the same time. It’s not an excuse to comment on the strength of City because it’s just a fact. What they’ve done to this league is unprecedented, they’re likely to win their 6th in 7 years which I believe is a record for a 7 season span.

The league is what it is now and while we need to be pushing every year to try and win it, actually doing it right now is a monstrous task. If City had been upset a few times then you could draw encouragement from that but that’s only happened once and it required Liverpool to win 26 out of 27 games from the start of the season.

Also those runs you mentioned from 98 and 2002, they wouldn’t be enough now. I understand winners don’t allow for slip ups but the more games you need to win the more chances you have to slip up. Had we carried on our run against Villa, it would have meant needing 17 wins from 18 games to win the title. A type of winning run we’ve never been on in our history.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Also those runs you mentioned from 98 and 2002, they wouldn’t be enough now. I understand winners don’t allow for slip ups but the more games you need to win the more chances you have to slip up. Had we carried on our run against Villa, it would have meant needing 17 wins from 18 games to win the title. A type of winning run we’ve never been on in our history.

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Yet look at City compared to previous seasons. Liverpool lost out on the title despite winning 97 points, the nearest we’ve come in that time is 84 points.


If we lose one game all season and still come up short, then I’ll put my hands up and say it’s not fair.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Yet look at City compared to previous seasons.

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Top of the league - 3 points fewer than at this stage last season, in the FA Cup semi-final and the CL Quarter finals.
What a bunch of losers.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Top of the league - 3 points fewer than at this stage last season, in the FA Cup semi-final and the CL Quarter finals.
What a bunch of losers.

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In terms of points accumulation

If they get 95 points or more, fine absolutely they’ve set the bar too high

In the past twenty years only twice has a team won the title with fewer than 85 points. Since 2004 we have only reached 80 points or more on three occasions. The most we’ve accrued was 84 points

You keep making it about other teams, I don’t. Only twice in the past twenty years have we won fewer than six league games in a season.

Those are the standards, and if we are incapable of them. I suggest we give up and go home

The thing about City though is you feel they'll just do whatever other teams do and then just go a bit better.
Like a 10,000m runner who just keeps pace and then at the bell sprints the last lap and blows everyone away.
Liverpool got 97 points, City got 98. Liverpool won every game in the run in so City did too.
The only time anyone stopped them was Liverpool winning 26 of the first 27 games or something insane like that.
To me it's a bit like chiding other runners for being rubbish when Usain Bolt was at his pomp.
That said, obviously we should always strive to improve and maybe with Klopp gone we'll have a clearer run next season.

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Originally Posted by Letters

The thing about City though is you feel they'll just do whatever other teams do and then just go a bit better.
Like a 10,000m runner who just keeps pace and then at the bell sprints the last lap and blows everyone away.
Liverpool got 97 points, City got 98. Liverpool won every game in the run in so City did too.
The only time anyone stopped them was Liverpool winning 26 of the first 27 games or something insane like that.
To me it's a bit like chiding other runners for being rubbish when Usain Bolt was at his pomp.
That said, obviously we should always strive to improve and maybe with Klopp gone we'll have a clearer run next season.

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As I say, the issue is us not City. We consistently get 90 points a season and we are still being bested by City then we can talk.

We have to win every game from now till the end of the season just to match what we got in 01/02

So your complaint is we're not consistently getting more points than The Invincibles.
If that's your bar then prepare for a lifetime of disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Letters

So your complaint is we're not consistently getting more points than The Invincibles.
If that's your bar then prepare for a lifetime of disappointment.

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Well I have haven’t I

The fact is that’s been the benchmark of a title winning side for 20 years now. 85-90 points.

Do I expect us to get that every single season?. No. But the failure to get it even once since 2004…makes me kind of think what City are or are not achieving is irrelevant.


Liverpool managed to get in excess of 90 points in three seasons, only one of those did they win the league. They probably have fair reason to bemoan the City machine

We don’t

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Do I expect us to get that every single season?. No. But the failure to get it even once since 2004…makes me kind of think what City are or are not achieving is irrelevant.

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I mean, to be fair for much of that time we haven't been anywhere near good enough to challenge. Till a couple of seasons ago we weren't finishing top 4, let alone being anywhere near title contenders.

anyway let's hope we win tonight eh? :lol:

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Originally Posted by Mac76

anyway let's hope we win tonight eh? :lol:

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:lol:

:gp:

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Originally Posted by Letters

I mean, to be fair for much of that time we haven't been anywhere near good enough to challenge. Till a couple of seasons ago we weren't finishing top 4, let alone being anywhere near title contenders.

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Right

But neither at the moment do we have the right to bemoan City because we aren’t reaching the minimum standards in order to claim we’ve done enough to be title winners. What City have or have not achieved this season is actually far less germane than the fact we’ve been doubled by Villa, had four points taken off us by Fulham and couldn’t get decent results at home to Spurs or away to Newcastle.

I don’t really get how any of this is controversial.

Bayern Munich: Neuer, Kimmich, de Ligt, Dier, Mazraoui, Goretzka, Laimer, Sane, Musiala, Guerreiro, Kane.
Subs: Upamecano, Kim, Choupo-Moting, Zaragoza, Peretz, Muller, Ulreich, Tel, Pavlovic

Arsenal: Raya, White, Saliba, Gabriel, Tomiyasu, Rice, Jorginho, Odegaard, Saka, Martinelli, Havertz.
Subs: Ramsdale, Partey, Gabriel Jesus, Smith Rowe, Nketiah, Kiwior, Trossard, Vieira, Nelson, Elneny, Hein, Zinchenko.

Think that’s the line up most wanted to see.

Yeah good to see Tomi starting

Saka and Martinelli really need to deliver tonight.

Josh and Stan Kroenke are there.

Come on Arsenal. :bow:

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Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...

Josh and Stan Kroenke are there.

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Tom Selleck and the Idiot son

They said once about Stan, “when you think of silent people, you think they are clever, enigmatic they don’t speak unless they’ve something intelligent to say. He just doesn’t have much to contribute when he does speak”

The real fortune earner is the wife who is the heiress to Walmart

It’s not that he’s stupid, it’s that largely his investments are risk free…he’s always had the capital against which to borrow

Champions League music. :bow:

Come on you Gunners!