Match reacton - Soton

[Niall_Quinn]

You quoted him above to back up a point and now you're saying everything he says is a lie?
And, again, it's possible to think that he should be sacked and also not think a lot of the things you think about him.

Yes. The Top 4 Trophy thing is a blatant lie. Top 4 is not a trophy. Top 4 is money for competing for a trophy we never compete for. So yes. When he tries to paint top 4 as a trophy he's telling a giant sized lie because he knows bloody well he hasn't done nearly enough to get within a mile of that particular trophy. It's like saying not getting relegated is a trophy because you then get to compete for the PL title next season. All about the money, none of it has anything to do with football.

[Niall_Quinn]

What Pep said about the Top 4 was his attempt to deflect attention away from the poor season he had. He knows it and his owners know it too otherwise he’d be fired if he came 3rd or 4th this season. Nothing has been left to chance this season. Man City are flying.

I don’t know if Wenger believes half the crap he says. In most cases I believe he’s just putting up a defence to deflect blame away from his record, but boy oh boy, how he’s managed to convince people of his bullshit is quite remarkable. From fans like Letters, to the Board room. It’s unreal. This is a man that tried to blame Ramsey's injury record on the hairspray Ramsey used!

I really can't understand it either.

And what Letters quoted from Pep was Letters' attempt to deflect as well. Like he did earlier in this match thread when he dismissed another lousy season from Wenger with the excuse that nobody is catching the gypos anyway. Always an excuse in there somewhere. Losing is baked in.

It's a weird sporting form of Stockholm Syndrome.

[Niall_Quinn]

Interesting. I've always thought that he does believe he can and is simple deluded. But what you've suggested is certainly plausible.

???

It has been suggested Wenger is a second rate loser with zero ambition beyond feathering his own nest - ON MANY OCCASIONS.

You're only getting it now?

[Niall_Quinn]

I don’t think he believes he can challenge for the main prizes anymore, not at this stage of his career and life where the environment is so much more competitive.

However he finds himself in a unique position where he doesn’t need to challenge yet finds himself absolutely secure in his job. That is down to the owner first and foremost but also a fanbase that just isn’t bothered enough collectively to do something about it, probably due to sentiment.

It’s the perfect place for him to see out his career in relative comfort despite overseeing and accepting a complete drop off in standards. A vanity project, completely selfish and serves no purpose other than to prolong his time in football.

Yeah. Good post.

Between them, they've stitched up a comfy little gig at the world record expense of the fans. The last lot buggered off with half a billion in their pockets, only one of them ever bothering to have coughed a bit back, and this next lot are perfect for Wenger. Zero ambition beyond building a lucrative asset on the back of more than a century of tradition and a captive audience. Match made in hell.

[Marc Overmars]

Interesting. I've always thought that he does believe he can and is simple deluded. But what you've suggested is certainly plausible.

If he did believe he could compete then I reckon we’d see a very different Wenger.

Instead we’ve wasted money and time on ordinary players, heard lame excuses, had expectations downplayed, and seen anyone who’s anyone pack up and leave because the club is at a dead end. Have you ever heard of a top club having its 2 prized assets walk on a free at the same time? It’s laughable.

Absolutely nothing that’s gone on at this club over the past decade suggests to me there’s any belief we can be something more than a top 4 outfit.

[Niall_Quinn]

Frankly it’s always occurred to me that Wenger aggrandises 4th place to gloss over his numerous failings

There’s no doubt that other clubs would like Wengers consistency in champions league qualification, but eventually they’d have to ask well why has this not propelled us onto anything better.

I don’t believe Wenger actively seeks not to do any better than top four, because that would suggest he has purposely put the kybosh on seasons where it was possible for us to win things. What I think is far more likely is that at times he’s chosen to be more parsimonious than necessary because there would be more expectation to succeed and more questions asked.
But on top of that you have to factor in Wenger is one of the worlds most indecisive individuals but along with that is also a micro manager which is a pretty terrible combination.

Happy with 4th? Perhaps overstated. Not willing to do what it takes in the transfer market to get us to win the title well yeah but who would trust him in the transfer market anyway?.

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

[Niall_Quinn]

If he did believe he could compete then I reckon we’d see a very different Wenger.

Instead we’ve wasted money and time on ordinary players, heard lame excuses, had expectations downplayed, and seen anyone who’s anyone pack up and leave because the club is at a dead end. Have you ever heard of a top club having its 2 prized assets walk on a free at the same time? It’s laughable.

Absolutely nothing that’s gone on at this club over the past decade suggests to me there’s any belief we can be something more than a top 4 outfit.

Bit unfair.

I think we're top 5 now.

[Letters]

And what Letters quoted from Pep was Letters' attempt to deflect as well.

What do you mean 'deflect'? Deflect from what?
Do you even understand how debate works? You say something I disagree with so I respond saying why I don't agree and, where relevant, backing up my position with evidence.
You then respond and so on. That is all that is happening.

You stated that Wenger's primary goal is top 4, you backed that up with a quote (which you provided no source for by the way).
I I found an actual source where Wenger said that 4th was his 3rd priority, below the two big competitions and (interestingly) above the FA Cup. And his stated reason for that was that players are more interested in whether we're playing in the CL than whether we won a domestic trophy. The Guardiola quote was an addition to demonstrate that Wenger is not uniquely of the opinion that top 4 is an important benchmark.

Like he did earlier in this match thread when he dismissed another lousy season from Wenger with the excuse that nobody is catching the gypos anyway.

I see you ignored my first post in this thread, or one of the first, where I said that even though City are going mental and no-one is going to catch them, we're not going to be winning titles with this defence or away record.
So no, not dismissing it at all.

Can you really not wrap your head around the idea that someone can think someone should be sacked but not think every criticism of that person is justified? I honestly don't think it's a difficult concept.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He's the guy who sets out on a 100 mile journey with EXACTLY 100 miles of fuel in the car, provided he travels at optimum speed all the way. There's no allowance for hitting jams and no capacity to accelerate when the road is clear. Chug, chug, chug, 56mph all the way. There's one petrol station along the way (in January) - if he's fucked the journey to that point he'll buy one extra litre of fuel, just the one. If he's doing okay on consumption he'll sail right past, ignoring the sign that warns of the same roadblock ahead that has been there for 10 years. He's totally fucking incompetent. Happens every year and every year he changes the seat covers and tells us it's the best car he ever had.

Yes. I think to be honest MO’s assertion that he knows he can’t win the title is on the nose

It’s not so much not wanting to win, but it’s a case of not wanting to change the things that lends itself to winning. And I think that’s mainly because he can’t stand not being in control of every single detail. Which I think is partly to do with his personality and partly because he doesn’t want to admit to himself that he’s wasted his life. 21 years living in London, every moment dedicated to football, does pundit work instead of taking holidays doesn’t have any interests outside of the game....and what’s he got to show for it, a crumbling legacy.
He’s long been a prisoner of his own stubborn intransigence, what’s changed in the last five-ten years is that he’s made us prisoners of it as well. Whilst some still have signs of Stockholm syndrome, most are desperate to break free of it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If he did believe he could compete then I reckon we’d see a very different Wenger.

Instead we’ve wasted money and time on ordinary players, heard lame excuses, had expectations downplayed, and seen anyone who’s anyone pack up and leave because the club is at a dead end. Have you ever heard of a top club having its 2 prized assets walk on a free at the same time? It’s laughable.

Absolutely nothing that’s gone on at this club over the past decade suggests to me there’s any belief we can be something more than a top 4 outfit.

I think when he signed on in 2014 and he signed Alexis I think that was a glimmer that he could spend more and go for things, even in that season he left us woefully exposed in terms of defenders. I think that and the subsequent season have shown to him that he can’t hack the modern game.
I genuinely think he signed on in 2014 because he believed he could take us forward, in 2017 it’s clearly a case of frightened to leave.