When will Arteta be sacked by

[Mac76]

This follows on from what I’ve said that actually the coach isn’t that important.

...and which has been shown to be absurd, and before you use the 'E' word, not just as I previously said by Moyes at Everton, also Santo at Forest, Ireola at Bournemouth and others.

Actually you can also spin it round and point to what a negative the fat Aussie has been at Spuds, also Russell Martin at Saints, whose suicidal tactics gave them no chance, a la Kompany at Burnley the season before

To say that the person who chooses the team, the tactics, the coaching staff and regime, and to some extent the transfers isn't important is palpably ludicrous

And you've often said you hate Arteta and want him to go, but why, if he isn't important?

[IBK]

IBK, I suggest you try and watch the Barca and Inter game so you'll realise the gods did us a favour giving us PSG at this stage.

Like I said to HCZ on another thread, there are too many people who share these sympathies and this why even if we lose all the games left this season, Arteta's job will stay relatively safe.

AFAIC all I see this season are convenient excuses for someone who when he became a favourite for a competition (the EPL and the CL) contrived to mess things up either through hubris or lack of preparation. That isn't a sign of a winner but a glorified choker. And before you say we only became favourites this season, he also did it in the UEFA cup when we were favourites.

At the end of the day, I think its naive to think you'll win a league by continually taking baby steps, as we've been doing with this manager. That's the main reason I want him out, I can't ever see him doing enough to win the league.

As Slot has shown, and I said in previous seasons when I pointed out the list of Chelsea managers who won the league at the first time of asking, if a core of a team is decent, a new manager can always build on this and get you what you think you deserve.

I am beginning to think that only a nuclear event like Spurs winning the league or the CL will irk the fanbase enough to realise that we're waisting a talented bunch because we're afraid of taking the next step, as usual.

But your post ignores many of the points that I have raised.

I did watch the Barca/Inter game last night and share your sentiment that the level appeared far higher for both teams than we have shown. What I fail to understand is how this relates to the arguments I have raised to put Arteta's performance with us into context.

Barca - 5x winners of the comp in the past 20 years. Inter 1x winners in this period, and finalists in 2022/23. Both teams with continuous participation in and experience of the comp for the past 7 seasons (Barca since 1998). Arsenal never winners and not even in the comp for 5 years prior to last season. Even then, Arteta matched Barca's performance last season and bettered Inter's. Surely you are not saying that because Arsenal's performance on Tuesday with a very depleted team did not match these two last night this should be the standard by which Arteta is judged. Put another way, would Inzaghi's or Flick's teams been as scintillating/effective with 2 of their best 3 MF's absent; no strikers; no first choice LCM and, say Lamal and Dumfries (who scored or assisted all 6 goals last night) at 70%? You also don't know how PSG - equally packed with talent - would have fared against either team.

Your 'favourite' for the EPL and the CL point cuts both ways BTW. At the time when this may have been the case - it was based on performances and results achieved by guess who - the manager you want rid of. I'm also not buying the choker tag. You can't apply this while at the same time ignoring our injuries. My view is that we might have prevailed on Tuesday with Partey playing. We even had good chances to win the match. Are these factors the manager's fault?

Is it naive to think that titles are won by sometimes incremental progression? Even the great Klopp - coming in with vastly more experience - took 4 seasons to win the league and having done so failed to do this again in his following 4 seasons. There are almost inevitably setbacks - success is often not linear. Yes Slot, and some Chelsea managers won the league at the first time of asking, but my above post pointed out Slot's advantages over Arteta, and Chelsea had financial advantages not available to him. Also, Arteta did not inherit a decent core of a team. He came into a club in complete disarray, with a mediocre and unbalanced team, and huge work to do to turn the ship around.

If you are panning Arteta for an admittedly disappointing league season this season, are you saying that had our first team remained largely fit this season we would not have had a decent shout at overhauling Liverpool?

Where I have more sympathy with you is taking the next step. We are yet to see how we do this, and I am reserving judgment until I do.

The main thrust of my above post was lamenting the lack of any balance and context in assessing our manager. HCZ at least acknowledges Arteta's achievements. The issue is not as black and white as people on both sides of the argument seem to think.

[Mac76]

The blame for this league season is partly due to things Arteta has control over - negative tactics and setups, a failure to use all of the squad effectively and a poor transfer policy, equally we can't ignore the refs and injuries either, but if you get all that other stuff right, you've a better chance of overcoming.them

[HCZ_Reborn]

...and which has been shown to be absurd, and before you use the 'E' word, not just as I previously said by Moyes at Everton, also Santo at Forest, Ireola at Bournemouth and others.

Actually you can also spin it round and point to what a negative the fat Aussie has been at Spuds, also Russell Martin at Saints, whose suicidal tactics gave them no chance, a la Kompany at Burnley the season before

To say that the person who chooses the team, the tactics, the coaching staff and regime, and to some extent the transfers isn't important is palpably ludicrous

And you've often said you hate Arteta and want him to go, but why, if he isn't important?

It’s almost not worth responding to this, because I think you’re so desperate to be right your whole argument is utterly confused.

What im clearly saying is if the setup at a club is good enough it doesn’t necessarily matter who the coach is. This isn’t the same as saying at every club the coach is just a functionary….please tell me you understand that?. It didn’t matter for Real Madrid whether Zidane or Ancelotti was head coach because ultimately they were just one small part of the overall structure.

So I don’t even know why you’d mention Forest or Everton as neither work to that structure. And I think it’s strange that you’re still trying the Moyes example because actually the results for Everton have gone back to being how they were under throat cancer boy, so your example of why what I’m saying is absurd actually only serves to prove my point.

Arsenal don’t have that structure either, Arteta has far too much power and influence, that needs to be curbed. We don’t need self professed geniuses with a god complex, we need quiet unremarkable guys who can work as part of a team not being the generalissimo.

Now kindly go away and try not to start arguments with people unless you bother to actually understand what the argument is first

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

I think where I disagree with you, and if I’ve misattributed sentiments to you in anyway then I’ll withdraw. Is that you look to Chelsea as a blueprint for what we should be as a club and for me that would be monstrous. Not just as it is now but how it’s always been, I don’t want one good season, one thin season that’s been bought off the back of going berserk in the transfer market. The only coach there that brought in any measure of stability/sustainability was Mourinho and he then undermined that with his destructive narcissistic personality (I use that word a lot to describe people but we really are in an age of narcassists)

Arteta has been given a lot of money to spend but what definitely can’t be said of him is that if he were to go tomorrow, the next coach would have their job cut out for them. No I think given a few additions I think they’d have one of the easiest jobs in the world. Slot who you cite, is nothing special and benefited from a) having a largely settled squad available to him and b) the clubs that would have most likely squeezed them back into third place where for my money is where they belong, have both had atrocious seasons.

Arteta is responsible for this, but he’s also responsible for the fact that despite this we are still in the driving seat to finish 2nd and actually we’ve lost 7 games all season (which is the same number as supposedly brilliant Liverpool have lost).

For me it’s about getting the balance right, there’s no sense to me in being a team that wins the title or the champions league one season, to be mid table and then have to spend loads to build an entirely new team.

If we win the league, I want to retain the league, if we win the European cup I want us to try to retain it. I don’t just want big prizes in one season….i want us to create a dynasty of success. Something Chelsea never did, and Man City have only done through cheating.

From paragraph 2 I agree with everything you said and this has been the sentiment I have shared for ages. The only thing I might disagree with you a bit is there should be urgency to win the league, as the first win is what gets things rolling and not coming 2nd every year like we did a lot under AW which we are now repeating without the conciliatory trophies under Arteta.

As for your first paragraph, yes you have misconstrued what I've been saying regarding Chelsea as an example. I've never asked for us to operate exactly like Chelsea, what I have rejected is that Chelsea was a badly run club in its entirety and that there are no learnings to take from them. In particular, I agree with the notion under Abramovich (which Italian superclubs have always done) that made clear that coaches should be set proper targets and held accountable when they fail.

In the 19 years Abramovich was in charge Chelsea won 19 major titles using 13 managers, and they were the most successful club throughout this period (ManU followed with 16 and we trailed I believe we with 3 or so FA cups).

When Abramovich's reign started, Ranieri was at the helm and he got them to their highest league finish in ages (2nd) and got them to the semifinals of the CL. Easily Chelsea's best performance in a generation. Yet he was sacked. Mourinho comes in the next season, wins the LC, dethrones the Invincibles and wins the league with largely Ranieri's team while also reaching the CL semis. 2 seasons later he'd be sacked for a stuttering league campaign and not surpassing Ranieri's feats in the CL.

I'm not going to go on about every manager but will point out that these two top managers, if they were Arsenal managers would have been heralded as successes and probably been given 10 years each to perfect their craft and create a team that would dominate for ages.

With hindsight and looking at how both their careers have panned out, I can say without a doubt, if he had stuck with either manager, Abramovich and Chelsea would not have been as successful as they turned out in the 19 years he was there.

The initial reason I brought up Chelsea was to point out that all the managers who won the league won it in their first season in charge, using another's team to do so. Thankfully Slot has repeated this feat so I don't have to use Chelsea anymore when I point out the ability of a new manager to give us instant results like AW once did.

Managers like Pep and Fergie, who can build dynasties are once in a generation. You rate Klopp and I rate him also as being one of the best managers I've ever seen, but even he couldn't build a dynasty of winners that dominate. Neither could AW and the world rates him as a Genius.

As for Arteta, who has the gall to rate the Charity Shield as a big trophy, I don't think he's anything special nor is he going to create a dominating dynasty soon, no matter how much support he gets and how badly some of us need this to be true.

[IBK]

The blame for this league season is partly due to things Arteta has control over - negative tactics and setups, a failure to use all of the squad effectively and a poor transfer policy, equally we can't ignore the refs and injuries either, but if you get all that other stuff right, you've a better chance of overcoming.them

Mate - that's not really an illuminating point. Every team's performance (and of course this is always relative) is to a large degree down to things within a manager's gift (HCZ knows I don't agree with his 'pilotless team' argument). This is evidenced by teams' relative ups and downs under different managers. Arsenal are no different.

Also, few managers (if any) do not make some mistakes, or are not reliant on good fortune.

Again, I am not making excuses for Arteta's mistakes (that I have criticised on many occasions), what I am saying is that people calling for his head are, in my view, taking our league performance and failure to improve on 2nd place as irrefutable proof that he is not up to the job, and failing to see this in any proper context.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think even under Abramovich, the Chelsea model is far too chaotic and inconsistent to be a model I’d want anything to do with. It was entirely based on money spent, even their two champions league titles came with apalling league campaigns side by side.
Ancelotti won the title in his first season, yet did nothing in his second season….wasnt a good coach one season and an average one the next.
Whilst it’s not quite look at what Chelsea have done and do the opposite, but it’s not far off that.

Klopp’s time at Liverpool has to be seen through the context of a malfeasant Manchester City. We talk about the frustration of getting 89 points and losing out on the title, Liverpool twice got 90+ points and lost out to them. And Slot knows and has the humility to acknowledge that without Klopp, there’s no way he’s winning the title this season.
Arteta has created something that an ordinary Slot like coach can (to coin a phrase ) Slot into and be successful with, though it would require some tweaks….in that the influence and power Arteta has now, the person who succeeds him cannot be allowed. We need a first team coach not a manager, let the director of football and other staff have the responsibility and allow the new guy to work with them as part of a team rather than him having any authority over them.

I think Arteta would probably be fine in that setup, yes it can be argued that he’s negative tactically but take away a season where we’ve had also zero strikers….since 2022 we’ve won the vast majority of our games in the league and scored plenty of goals. However it wouldn’t be possible to change Arteta’s role at the club because of his hubris and his ego…so he has to go

[IBK]

@ 21 GS - even he couldn't build a dynasty of winners that dominate

And here is one of my main issues. Who is out there who is guaranteed to do this? It's easy to live in a fantasy world where there is a sure way to guarantee success. The reality is very different. There is far more chance of us bringing in a multiple title winning manager who flounders at our club than there is of even a celebrated coach taking us further than Arteta has and might well still do.

Plus building a dynasty (and by this I mean not flash in the pan success but something sustained like - as you say - Fergie; Pep; AW achieved) takes time. I'd say that by these criteria - taking us from the wilderness to a position where we have consistently finished second in the league and for 2 years gone past the last 16 of the CL is not a bad springboard for the lasting success that we all crave. Winning trophies is not easy, and there are too many random factors to ever make this guaranteed - at least for a club with our resources.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Mate - that's not really an illuminating point. Every team's performance (and of course this is always relative) is to a large degree down to things within a manager's gift (HCZ knows I don't agree with his 'pilotless team' argument). This is evidenced by teams' relative ups and downs under different managers. Arsenal are no different.

Also, few managers (if any) do not make some mistakes, or are not reliant on good fortune.

Again, I am not making excuses for Arteta's mistakes (that I have criticised on many occasions), what I am saying is that people calling for his head are, in my view, taking our league performance and failure to improve on 2nd place as irrefutable proof that he is not up to the job, and failing to see this in any proper context.

I’ve never suggested we should have a pilotless team, so it feels like (and perhaps you’re not the only one here) who misunderstands my argument.

When I say it doesn’t matter who we have, I look at Liverpool’s model….Slot is the head coach who knows his place….hes certainly nothing special….he just does the simple things right and although at the beginning of the season experimented with putting his own personal stamp on the team, he quickly saw that wasn’t working and kept with the Klopp formula.

I think the big personality who is the supreme commander and the conductor of the orchestra is unnecessary. You need a first team coach who can get on with everyone, doesn’t rock the boat too much and isn’t a galaxy brain. That’s all

[IBK]

I’ve never suggested we should have a pilotless team, so it feels like (and perhaps you’re not the only one here) who misunderstands my argument.

When I say it doesn’t matter who we have, I look at Liverpool’s model….Slot is the head coach who knows his place….hes certainly nothing special….he just does the simple things right and although at the beginning of the season experimented with putting his own personal stamp on the team, he quickly saw that wasn’t working and kept with the Klopp formula.

I think the big personality who is the supreme commander and the conductor of the orchestra is unnecessary. You need a first team coach who can get on with everyone, doesn’t rock the boat too much and isn’t a galaxy brain. That’s all

Yeah - fair enough - we are all guilty of over statement sometomes

I take your argument re the level of responsibility assumed by Arteta, albeit that my position is (I guess) that it is what it is, and we are yet to see whether it takes us where we want to go.